# Ten Commandments decision is in **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047 "2005-06-27T15:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/41 "2005-06-28T00:19:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > OK, I read the two opinions. Well, not in their entirety-- there was an “eyes glazing over” factor that came into play at times, but I did get thru most of them. > > Taken together, it seems that the court is saying: It’s OK to post the Ten Commandments as long as it’s part of a historical display about history, but not if it has a purely, or mainly, religious intent. And we’ll be checking very closely for that intent. That was my read also. And, pretty much what I would have expected considering rulings by the Supremes the last couple decades or so. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/42 "2005-06-28T00:26:05Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The reason the Ten Commandments gets displayed in courtrooms is to show that we are a Christian nation. Christian! Not Jewish, not Muslim, not Wiccan. And ESPECIALLY not atheist! And everybody else can go to hell! Is that why the [monument in question in Texas](http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/releases/2005/030205tc5_w.jpg) has two Stars of David on it? (The second one is blocked by the guy in the picture, but imagine it in a symetrical place relative to the one that is visible.) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/43 "2005-06-28T00:54:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I guess this will be a full employment act for the lawyers who litigate this type of thing, since determining the intent of lawmakers can be a tricky thing if you tell them in advance you’ll be looking for it. They’ll take extra pains to hide it. Religion? Why the thought never occured to me! Intent is often hard to find, but in these cases it is sometimes express. Local politicians are either dumb enough to not realize that saying they want this displayed to glorify God will invalidate the action, or on the other hand they really don’t care if the item is ever displayed, and instead just want to generate a fight, to show how the nasty Godless liberals are persecuting Christians again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/44 "2005-06-28T01:31:09Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > Just a few points of ignorance to clear up: > > You are right, we Catholics have 9 Commandments. Why is everyone referring to 10? What is the extra one? > > \*\*Give me a break. :wally > \*\* > > For your information, we have virtually the same Decalogue that every other branch of Christianity has. The first four being for God, the other six for man. The Commandment to which you are referring concerns the one God, having no others, and making “graven images”. Idols and not statues of our God anyone? Well, not added but it more correct to say splitted: > [@](#): > > Abbreviated Protestant Ten Commandments: > > 1 You shall have no other gods but me. > 2 You shall not make unto you any graven images > 3 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain > 4 You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy > 5 Honor your mother and father > 6 You shall not murder > 7 You shall not commit adultery > 8 You shall not steal > 9 You shall not bear false witness > 10 You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor > > Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments: > > 1 I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. > 2 You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain > 3 Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day > 4 Honor your father and your mother > 5 You shall not kill > 6 You shall not commit adultery > 7 You shall not steal > 8 You shall not bear false witness > 9 You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife > 10 You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods > > The first thing which to notice is that after the first commandment, numbering starts to change. For example in the Catholic listing the imperative against adultery is the sixth commandment; for Jews and most Protestants it is the seventh. > > One other interesting difference occurs in how Catholics translate the Deuteronomy verses into actual commandments. In the Butler Catechism, verses eight through ten are simply left out. The Catholic version thus omits the prohibition against graven images - an obvious problem for the Roman Catholic church which is rife with shrines and statues. To make up for this, Catholics divide verse 21 into two commandments, thus separating the coveting of a wife from the coveting of farm animals. The Protestant versions of the commandments retain the prohibition against graven images, but it seems to be ignored since statues and other images have proliferated in their churches as well. Care to take that putz back? even if you tried to say that to everyone, (and that is bad also) it looks like it was more directed at me, regardless, it is not kosher to use it here. ;j ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/45 "2005-06-28T01:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Catholics divide verse 21 into two commandments, thus separating the coveting of a wife from the coveting of farm animals. Must…resist…joke…about…wife…and…cow… ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/46 "2005-06-28T01:41:46Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > So much for Freedom of Speech. Its OK to burn and stomp on the flag of the American people, but to display the words that are accepted by a significant portion of the American people, Christians, Muslims, and Jews is verboten. Do you remotely understand the purpose of the Bill of Rights? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/47 "2005-06-28T01:43:18Z")
:smack: forgot the link: > **[The Ten Commandments: Catholic and Protestant Are Different](https://www.learnreligions.com/different-versions-of-the-ten-commandments-250923)** > > Short Versions of the Ten Commandments: Scholars have identified both Exodus renditions as having probably been written in the tenth century BCE. And please ad an “is” in the first line. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/48 "2005-06-28T01:44:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > the Wiccans can square off against the Amish. As a Wiccan, and I think I speak for most Wiccans on this point, I have no gripe whatever with the Amish. But as an _~~~AMERICAN~_~_~_\*\* I am seriously scared of Christian Reconstructionism, Dominionisn, Rushdoonyism, that Christofascist plan to replace our Constitution with Deuteronomy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/49 "2005-06-28T04:37:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Care to take that putz back? even if you tried to say that to everyone, (and that is bad also) it looks like it was more directed at me, regardless, it is not kosher to use it here. ;j > [@](#): > > Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them (Ex., xx, 3-5). First off, it seems like this is to say that we are to make no images whatsoever. This would mean that Moses broke the Lord’s law when he had the two angels cast on top of the Ark of the Covenant. The Commandments are also listed in Deuteronomy 5 from which the Church father St. Augustine drew from when outlining the Catholic beliefs in this matter. More on our beliefs [here](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp) . Your list is an over simplification and since it is you who is telling me what my religion believes, I reserve the right to defend it if I choose. I am even more skeptical because you used an atheist broadside to make your point. Secondly, there aren’t any numbers associated with the Ten Commandments but an implied ten-fold division. The numbers are arbitrary and there is much debate about them to say the very least. I am sensitive to this because it is a [common](http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/tencomma.htm) anti-Catholic gripe. I’m sure this isn’t what you intended but I must register my objection to those who would take it in this way. We have our reasons for what we do and they have theirs. Early Christians used symbols and images as early as the second century A.D. so I take this to mean that the early followers of Christ understood what the Commandment meant. I apologize about the putz smiley. As I am new here, I really am learning as I am going. I usually reside in the Pit anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/50 "2005-06-28T05:28:25Z")
**GIGObuster** , when you’re trying to say what Roman Catholics believe, I would suggest it’s more accurate to go to a Roman Catholic source, rather than a site that’s expressly devoted to atheism. So for example, I would suggest that the most reliable site is the [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm), Part Three, Section Two, which outlines the Roman Catholic view of the Ten Commandments. I’ve cutted and pasted the commandments as set out in the Catechism: > [@](#): > > I. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. > > II You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. > > III Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work. > > IV Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you. > > V. You shall not kill. > > VI You shall not commit adultery. > > VII You shall not steal. > > VIII You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. > > IX You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s. > > [In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.] > > X You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor’s. . . . You shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s. > > [The tenth commandment unfolds and completes the ninth, which is concerned with concupiscence of the flesh. It forbids coveting the goods of another, as the root of theft, robbery, and fraud, which the seventh commandment forbids.] Two points - you will see that contrary to the site you relied on, the Catechism does include the graven image portion, but as part of the first commandment, not as a separate commandment. However, you are correct that the Catechism splits up the coveting commandment, distinguishing between the carnal coveting of another human, compared to the coveting of property. The passages in square brackets come from the Catechism’s commentary. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/51 "2005-06-28T05:47:47Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > First off, it seems like this is to say that we are to make no images whatsoever. This would mean that Moses broke the Lord’s law when he had the two angels cast on top of the Ark of the Covenant. The Commandments are also listed in Deuteronomy 5 from which the Church father St. Augustine drew from when outlining the Catholic beliefs in this matter. More on our beliefs [here](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp) . Your list is an over simplification and since it is you who is telling me what my religion believes, I reserve the right to defend it if I choose. I am even more skeptical because you used an atheist broadside to make your point. Swing and a miss (with a fallacy bat to boot) **The Highwayman** , I was Catholic, or I do remain, as the old saying goes. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Secondly, there aren’t any numbers associated with the Ten Commandments but an implied ten-fold division. The numbers are arbitrary and there is much debate about them to say the very least. > > I am sensitive to this because it is a [common](http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/tencomma.htm) anti-Catholic gripe. I’m sure this isn’t what you intended but I must register my objection to those who would take it in this way. We have our reasons for what we do and they have theirs. And that is the point: the commandments in the brouhaha are patterned after the protestant interpretation, in context I have to say I have an anti-protestant gripe 😉 > [@](#): > > Early Christians used symbols and images as early as the second century A.D. so I take this to mean that the early followers of Christ understood what the Commandment meant. And here you miss the point, there is no problem for me that images are used by early Christians, the problem is the current ones that are trying to establish their version of religion in government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/52 "2005-06-28T06:02:50Z")
**Northern Piper** , still the point was to show that it is the protestant interpretation that is one of the problems, and that is on top of the one the commandmends have with the establishment clause. But your cite has a problem of a different kind: manservant, or maidservant are a whitewhash of what it was the original meaning: Slaves. It is still sad to see that a god that could have killing fits if you coveted something, had no problems with you owning slaves. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/53 "2005-06-28T10:39:32Z")
The 10 Commandments have validity only if they are kept; so posting them in a public place, and worrying if they are not, suggests to me that the people who are so adament about having them posted have weak faith, and need every one to agree with their beliefs, or it may worry them that maybe… they are wrong. I have never passed a church that had the commandments posted out front. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/54 "2005-06-28T13:52:35Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Let’s have the Space Marine’s gun (From Aliens) put on display in a museum showing effective weapons. You know, now that it is a day later, and I have calmed down a bit, I think I will explain what the hell I was on when I made that remark. Anger. That is all for today, thank you for listening. Wait, you mean there is one more part? 😕 Oh, ok. > [@](#): > > After all, it is a movie prop, too. :mad: Well, I am not sure where, but I seem to recall hearing that the tablets are a promotional item, from an effort to promote Charleston Heston’s film, when it first came out. (Humanist magazine?) Unfortunately, “movie prop” +“ten commandments” is not yielding much on google, and I have no interest in digging deep. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/55 "2005-06-28T14:03:30Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Wait, you mean there is one more part? 😕 Oh, ok.Well, I am not sure where, but I seem to recall hearing that the tablets are a promotional item, from an effort to promote Charleston Heston’s film, when it first came out. (Humanist magazine?) Unfortunately, “movie prop” +“ten commandments” is not yielding much on google, and I have no interest in digging deep. I’ve found that noted mostly in [news](http://www.polstate.com/archives/001077.html) [stories](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/01/02/AR2005032500382_pf.html). > [@](#): > > In the 1940s, a juvenile delinquent who came before Judge E. J. Reugemer in St. Cloud, Minn., revealed that he had no idea what the Ten Commandments were. The judge, a member of the Fraternal Order of Eagles, began a campaign to put copies of the Ten Commandments in schools, churches and courthouses. > > Then, in 1956, Cecil B. DeMille’s publicity machine latched on to the Eagles’ campaign and helped fund the monuments to promote “The Ten Commandments,” his Academy Award-winning epic with Charlton Heston. Robert P. Wahls, grand secretary in the FOE’s national headquarters in Grove City, Ohio, estimates that the Eagles placed about 200 stone monuments throughout the country. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/56 "2005-06-28T14:07:53Z")
Got it. I must have read it earlier, and forgotten. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047/57 "2005-06-28T14:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Secondly, there aren’t any numbers associated with the Ten Commandments but an implied ten-fold division. Well, not really even that. There are thirteen separate statements. And not only are they never refferred to as the Ten commandments, but a DIFFERENT set of commandments are refferred to as the ten commandments. But I have a feeling that we don’t generally remember them because they include things that seem downright silly like “all the firstborn are mine!” All sorts of absurd theological contortions and rationalizations are made over this issue to fit what is a pretty complicated story of laws (numbering far more than ten in any count) into the Christian rethinking of Old Testament documents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-commandments-decision-is-in/310047.md?page=2)