# Ten Marines died today. What exactly did they die for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790 "2005-12-02T19:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/41 "2005-12-04T01:42:51Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > None of that is torture; most of the torture is done by us and our puppet Iraqi government. Puppet government? The one Iraqi people risked death to vote for? That one? Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you refering to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/42 "2005-12-04T02:04:48Z")
Der Trihs, We could argue the political and military aspects of the Vietnam war, or Cuba for that matter, but that’s not at issue here. My point, which I’m sure is obvious to most, is that I’ve had the experience and I believe that gives me an edge on understanding why people serve in uniform and, in some cases, die for a principle. I’m simply trying to articulate that experience. The military is a tool of politicians and politicians reflect the attitude of the people they represent. If you want to assign blame, then start by looking in a mirror. Following lawful orders does indeed absolve the individual from legal responsibility. The victors in an armed conflict very rarely face legal responsibility for their actions. Donning a uniform has no magical powers, it takes hard work, endless training and experience to earn the respect that you don’t seem to understand. I have, and will continue to, defend your right to dissent, but I contend that your criticism is misdirected. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/43 "2005-12-04T02:30:05Z")
> [@A.R. Cane](#): > > The military is a tool of politicians and politicians reflect the attitude of the people they represent. If you want to assign blame, then start by looking in a mirror. I voted against Bush twice, and have constantly criticized the war; I _never_ supported it. I refuse to accept any blame for this disaster. > [@Magiver](#): > > Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you refering to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. You mean the people who were beaten, killed and crippled ? The children who were raped to terrorize the parents, the people who were ripped up by dogs ? Oh I forgot - they are Iraqis, and all good Americans know nobody outside our borders is really human. They are vermin to be destroyed, or toys to be broken. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/44 "2005-12-04T02:40:13Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I voted against Bush twice, and have constantly criticized the war; I _never_ supported it. I refuse to accept any blame for this disaster. > > You mean the people who were beaten, killed and crippled ? The children who were raped to terrorize the parents, the people who were ripped up by dogs ? > > Oh I forgot - they are Iraqis, and all good Americans know nobody outside our borders is really human. They are vermin to be destroyed, or toys to be broken. Yes I mean those people. seriously. Who are these people and who committed the acts? If you’re against the war that’s fine. I’ll assume you were equally against intervention in Bosnia and Serbia and respect your peaceful desires to withdraw from World events. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/45 "2005-12-04T02:53:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes I mean those people. seriously. Who are these people and who committed the acts? They are the Iraqis and others we have victimized, and we did it. Have you been living in a hole ? > [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re against the war that’s fine. I’ll assume you were equally against intervention in Bosnia and Serbia and respect your peaceful desires to withdraw from World events. Not the same thing at all. We went after Bosinia/Serbia/Kosovo in a ( half hearted ) attempt to stop the killing. We invaded Iraq to control the oil; provide free money for Haliburton and others; build permanent bases to threaten and/or conquer the rest of the region; and protect Israel so Biblical prophecy can be fulfilled. We have never cared in the slightest for the fate of the Iraqi people, beyond a fair number of us who want to hurt and kill as many Iraqis as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/46 "2005-12-04T02:57:05Z")
I’ve received a number of requests to move this thread. I’ve been loath to do so. However, it seems to be taking a turn. Moved from IMHO to GD. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/47 "2005-12-04T03:28:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you referring to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. So are you willing to go to Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the secret detention centers, and give us a firsthand report about this “dog-collared frat-house bullshit”? Oh, and not as a journalist, but as a detainee? ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/48 "2005-12-04T03:33:47Z")
They died so Bush43 could go down in history as the man who liberated the middle east. It’s not working out very well for him. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/49 "2005-12-04T03:38:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Puppet government? The one Iraqi people risked death to vote for? That one? > > Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you refering to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. You do know that the DOD has refused to release all of the pics and videos don’t you? Why would they do that if it were just frat jokes? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/50 "2005-12-04T03:40:02Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I voted against Bush twice, and have constantly criticized the war; I _never_ supported it. I refuse to accept any blame for this disaster. Uh, no. Sorry, but you’re no more blameless than your Republican compatriots. It’s your political system and you pay the taxes that support it; you don’t get absolution unless you pack up and leave the country. If you want to spread the shit, pal, you’ve got to smear a little on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/51 "2005-12-04T03:49:44Z")
Ah…America…love it or leave it. From the 60’s. I always preferred… **America, change it or lose it.** Which we will do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/52 "2005-12-04T03:51:37Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So are you willing to go to Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, the secret detention centers, and give us a firsthand report about this “dog-collared frat-house bullshit”? > Oh, and not as a journalist, but as a detainee? Yes I would go as a journalist, no I would not go as a detainee. If I had the connections needed to do it I’d be there now. Nobody’s bothered to produce a stack of evidence that this is any kind of SOP. I’ve followed the events in the Middle East for the better part of 20 years and I’m well aware of the ugly side of war. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/53 "2005-12-04T03:57:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes I would go as a journalist, no I would not go as a detainee… Why not, afraid of a little dog-collared frat-house bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/54 "2005-12-04T04:02:52Z")
“America, change it or lose it.” I like that, I really like that. I think I will put it on my bumper. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/55 "2005-12-04T04:07:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Uh, no. Sorry, but you’re no more blameless than your Republican compatriots. It’s your political system and you pay the taxes that support it; you don’t get absolution unless you pack up and leave the country. Nonsense. Unless America made me God-King when I wasn’t looking, I have no power over what this country does, only what I vote for and say and _personally_ do. I voted against the war’s supporters; I argued against it; I have not fought in it. I’ve done what I can; it’s not my responsibility to abandon my home to no purpose. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes I would go as a journalist, no I would not go as a detainee. If I had the connections needed to do it I’d be there now. > > Nobody’s bothered to produce a stack of evidence that this is any kind of SOP. I’ve followed the events in the Middle East for the better part of 20 years and I’m well aware of the ugly side of war. And if you did, any story you produced would no doubt be another fabrication; otherwise, it wouldn’t be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/56 "2005-12-04T04:07:27Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Why not, afraid of a little dog-collared frat-house bullshit? If you want to talk to those responsible they should be able to give you the time of day considering they’re in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/57 "2005-12-04T04:07:39Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > The people who are “fighting back” represent 2 groups: former supporters of Saddam, and out side influences such as Abu Musab al Zarqawi (from Jordan). > > Cite? Not quite what **Magiver** would want to supply, but: [Complexity of Iraq insurgency helps it to survive](http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/02/africa/web.iraq.php) > [@](#): > > Iraqi and American officials in Iraq say the single most important fact about the insurgency is that it consists not of a few groups but of dozens, possibly as many as 100. And it is not, as often depicted, a coherent organization whose members dutifully carry out orders from above but a far-flung collection of smaller groups that often act on their own or… [US Army admits Iraqis outnumber foreign fighters as its main enemy](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/04/wirq04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/04/ixportal.html) > [@](#): > > Of 1,300 suspected insurgents arrested over the past five months in and around Ramadi, none has been a foreigner. This is a lower percentage than even the [20 foreigners out of 1052 insurgents](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-11-15-fallujah-foreigners_x.htm) captured during the reduction of Fallujah last year. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/58 "2005-12-04T04:10:02Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And if you did, any story you produced would no doubt be another fabrication; otherwise, it wouldn’t be allowed. Now you’re just rambling. bye. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/59 "2005-12-04T04:17:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now you’re just rambling. bye. [No](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347266), it’s not rambling, it’s standard procedure. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/60 "2005-12-04T05:27:34Z")
I think the U.S. military is a valuable asset and should be as strong as possible because, generally, we are a force of good in the world. Seeing it slowly bleed and weakened is rather disheartening, from a purely practical standpoint. > [@Magiver](#): > > Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you refering to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. :dubious: Wasn’t there someone that had a long list of cites ready to copy and paste whenever a poor, innocent lad wandered into a thread asking such a thing? Someone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790.md?page=4)