# Ten Marines died today. What exactly did they die for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790 "2005-12-02T19:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/61 "2005-12-04T06:31:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The people who are “fighting back” represent 2 groups: former supporters of Saddam, and out side influences such as Abu Musab al Zarqawi (from Jordan). Sorry, but: cite? ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/62 "2005-12-04T07:02:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Other than some dog-collared frat-house bullshit that people already went to jail for what torture are you refering to? Forget for a moment that you don’t equate mass suicide attacks with acts of torture, Show me a bruise, a black eye… something. The offical report by the military found evidenceof beatings and rapes. If you consider that frat house behaviour, I suspect you went to inquistion U. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/63 "2005-12-04T07:05:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nobody’s bothered to produce a stack of evidence that this is any kind of SOP. I’ve followed the events in the Middle East for the better part of 20 years and I’m well aware of the ugly side of war. So what do you think happens at those “Black Sites” the CIA is running? Why do you think Cheney wants to torture people, and Bush would perfer to use his first ever veto a defense bill because it contains an anti-torture provision(basically a big FU to our troops)? Both fly in the face of “We do not torture” as Bush put it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/64 "2005-12-04T10:52:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Cite? SDMB in a nutshell. Any disagreement is instantly, and without the slightest attempt to engage in debate with an open mind, tried silenced with calls for cites, while a gazillion, often quite absurd and some even downright beyond the pale disgusting, fly by and are accepted as Gods own gospel. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They died for nothing. That’s the hard truth cite? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Even if they went to Iraq with the noblest of motives, their deaths were still unnecessary and pointless. cite? > [@AskNott](#): > > Those brave, loyal Marines died to protect the flow of profits, and they died without knowing that. cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > They hate us because we invaded them, wrecked their country and raped/tortured/killed quite a few of them. cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > the Marines died because they attacked people who dare to fight back. cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Why “bless” a bunch of thugs ? And to think such a goddamn disgusting thing can pass nearly without a mention - even in a thread about their deaths - well I always thought that while with a leftist bend, at least you would never had descended to such baseness. > [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > they were attacking another country cite - that the killed marines were attacking another country > [@TV time](#): > > No, he is fighting against the US. He wasn’t even in the country until the U.S. got there. Cite? Not because I disagree, but because it seems that’s how debate is done here on SDMB. > [@TV time](#): > > But that’s OK because we are the good guys, right? Cite that you’re the good guys. cite that it’s ok, because you’re the good guys. Or if you want: Cite that anyone in the loop has said it’s ok to torture if you’re the good guys > [@Der Trihs](#): > > I voted against Bush twice cite? Anyway it doesn’t magically absolve you from responsible. Everybody part of a democracy must accept his little part of responsible whether he voted for or against. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > The children who were raped to terrorize the parents cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > We invaded Iraq to control the oil cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > provide free money for Haliburton and others; cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > to threaten and/or conquer the rest of the region; cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > protect Israel so Biblical prophecy can be fulfilled. cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > We have never cared in the slightest for the fate of the Iraqi people cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > beyond a fair number of us who want to hurt and kill as many Iraqis as possible. cite? > [@lonesome loser](#): > > They died so Bush43 could go down in history as the man who liberated the middle east. cite? etc. While it’s important to have facts, immediately rushing to demand cites every time you see something you disagree with, only helps to stop debate. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/65 "2005-12-04T11:58:52Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Ten more Marines died today and it gave me pause to think that these are ten more young lives in Iraq snuffed out …for what? If, as seems likely, the bomb was placed by Al-Zawahiri’s group of Al Qaeda, then the marines died because they were an obstacle on the way to realizing Al Qaeda’s goal of an islamofascist theocracy and their tyranny or elimination of everybody whom disagrees with their disgusting fascist and racist version of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/66 "2005-12-04T14:36:40Z")
> [@Dorjän](#): > > They died, because thats what Marines DO. Kill or be killed. As a former grunt, unfortunately I have to agree with this. Regardless of the political reasons behind their deaths, ultimately this is what it comes down to. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/67 "2005-12-05T01:15:41Z")
A large number of formerly military jobs were, in this war, turned over to private sector contractors. Did we do this to save money? No. Soldiers work cheap, and truck drivers for private firms get $80,000 a year plus **life insurance.** Life insurance in a war zone is not cheap. Iraqi truck drivers work even cheaper than US soldiers, but they can’t get jobs. If we were building a democracy instead of lining the pockets of contractors, wouldn’t we be hiring locals? It’s the same in security contractors. The UK’s top-notch soldiers are being hired away by private firms for security work, for more money. How does that save money? It doesn’t. It makes profits. It has been documented that our government was fraudulently billed for millions of dollars for meals not actually provided. Did we fire that company? No. Our government isn’t interested in pursuing the matter. Before the war, Iraq had more than a dozen cement factories. None of them have been started up again, because a reliable supply of electricity is not a top priority. All of the cement for construction in Iraq comes from outside contractors. For big fat profits. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/68 "2005-12-05T03:04:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Only if they asked. It’s not an insult to the dead, it’s just a factual observation. If it’s an insult to anyone it’s an insult to ones who _sent_ them to die for nothing. > > Once again, I am not making a comment on their motivations for joining the Marine Corps. No, **Dio** , it is not a factual observation. It is your own misguided opinion, nothing more and nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/69 "2005-12-05T05:05:51Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > The offical report by the military found evidenceof beatings and rapes. If you consider that frat house behaviour, I suspect you went to inquistion U. Are you refering to the trial? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/70 "2005-12-05T07:41:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Lamar Mundane > they were attacking another country > > cite? Do you really need a cite for this? Did Iraq attack the U.S. or did we attack them? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/71 "2005-12-05T09:25:02Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > they were attacking another country > > cite? > [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > Do you really need a cite for this? > > Did Iraq attack the U.S. or did we attack them? If this is a reply to me, then please read the whole question and don’t edit my posts i.e. _“cite – **that the killed marines** were attacking another country”_. The US troops in Iraq are there with the permission and urging of the legal and UN approved Iraq government. So if you were thinking they were attacking a country at this particular moment when they were killed, you are wrong. If you were thinking of the US led invasion of Iraq under the previous Iraqi government. Can you provide a cite that says the killed marines were part of that invasion? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/72 "2005-12-05T10:18:52Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > Wasn’t there someone that had a long list of cites ready to copy and paste whenever a poor, innocent lad wandered into a thread asking such a thing? Someone? I doubt I was that someone, but I can pinch hit. [ > [@](#): > > The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News. > > Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is `going to get worse'' and warned that the most `disturbing’’ revelations haven’t yet been made public. > `The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. `We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.’’ ]([http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Rueful\_Rumsfeld\_050704.htm](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Rueful_Rumsfeld_050704.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > Washington - Two Afghan prisoners who died in American custody in Afghanistan in December 2002 were chained to the ceiling, kicked and beaten by American soldiers in sustained assaults that caused their deaths, according to Army criminal investigative reports that have not yet been made public. > > One soldier, Pfc. Willie V. Brand, was charged with manslaughter in a closed hearing last month in Texas in connection with one of the deaths, another Army document shows. Private Brand, who acknowledged striking a detainee named Dilawar 37 times, was accused of having maimed and killed him over a five-day period by “destroying his leg muscle tissue with repeated unlawful knee strikes.” > > The attacks on Mr. Dilawar were so severe that “even if he had survived, both legs would have had to be amputated,” the Army report said, citing a medical examiner. > [snip] > American military officials in Afghanistan initially said the deaths of Mr. Habibullah, in an isolation cell on Dec. 4, 2002, and Mr. Dilawar, in another such cell six days later, were from natural causes. Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, the American commander of allied forces in Afghanistan at the time, denied then that prisoners had been chained to the ceiling or that conditions at Bagram endangered the lives of prisoners. > > But after an investigation by The New York Times, the Army acknowledged that the deaths were homicides. ]([http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9590](http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9590)) [ > [@](#): > > The U.S. Army says Ibrahim Al-Nedawy died of natural causes at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison. But his family says the 63-year-old villager and tribal leader was tortured and murdered during interrogation at the notorious facility. NPR’s Ari Shapiro reports. > > Al-Nedawy’s death certificate says he died of cardiac arrest on Jan. 8. His son, Ahmed, who was at Abu Ghraib with him, says Al-Nedawy died after a month and a half of beatings and humiliation. “He was tortured, and the torture was continuous,” Ahmed Al-Nedawy says. ]([http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3176362](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3176362)) [ > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, May 25 — An Army summary of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespread pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known. > [snip] > But the details paint a broad picture of misconduct, and show that in many cases among the 37 prisoners who have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army did not conduct autopsies and says it cannot determine the causes of the deaths. > [snip] > Both deaths were ruled homicides within days, but military spokesmen in Afghanistan initially portrayed at least one as being the result of natural causes. ]([http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Abuse\_of\_Captives\_052604.htm](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Abuse_of_Captives_052604.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > He cites evidence that doctors or medics falsified death certificates to cover up homicides, hid evidence of beatings and revived a prisoner so he could be further tortured. No reports of abuses were initiated by medical personnel until the official investigation into Abu Ghraib began, he found. > [snip] > A military police officer reported a medic inserted an intravenous tube into the corpse of a detainee who died while being tortured to create evidence that he was alive at the hospital, Miles said. > > At prisons in both Iraq and Afghanistan, “Physicians routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to heart attacks, heat stroke or natural causes without noting the unnatural (cause) of the death,” Miles wrote. > > He cites an example from a Human Rights Watch report in which soldiers tied a beaten detainee to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate indicated he died of “natural causes … during his sleep.” However, after media coverage, the Pentagon changed the cause of death to homicide by blunt force injuries and suffocation. ]([http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/)) [ > [@](#): > > In some cases, the immediate cause of death was listed as a heart attack, but that was in turn caused by a beating. ]([http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617289.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617289.shtml)) [ > [@](#): > > The original US autopsy said he had died of a heart attack. It now appears he was suffocated during interrogation when a CIA officer put him in a sleeping bag and sat on him. ]([http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The death of Mohamed Taiq Zaid was initially attributed to “heat”; it is currently and belatedly being investigated as a possible homicide due to abusive exposure to the hot Iraqi climate and deprivation of water. > > Eight prisoners suffered “natural” deaths from heart attacks or atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Threats, beatings, fear, police interrogation, and arrests are known to cause “homicide by heart attack” or life-threatening heart failure. People with preexisting heart disease, dehydration, hyperthermia, or exhaustion are especially susceptible.[11-15] No forensic investigation of lethal “heart attacks” explores the possibility that these men died of stress-induced heart attacks. > [snip] > Sher Mohammad Khan was picked up in Afghanistan in September 2004. Shortly thereafter, his bruised body was given to his family. Military officials told journalists that he had died of a heart attack within hours of being taken into custody. No investigation, autopsy, or death certificate is available ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) [ > [@](#): > > The 70-year-old man had a hip replacement and walked with a cane. The Christian Peacemaker Team reports the son as saying[18]: > > They pushed him like a criminal; they didn’t let him use his cane because his hands were tied. They handcuffed and put plastic hoods on my father, my uncle and my brother. I heard my father say, “I can’t breathe. . .” They pushed him into the vehicle. My father was in very bad condition at that time. He couldn’t talk because of the bag. . . . I could hear him gasping . . . After that, my father stopped moving . . . [An] officer told me my father died from a heart attack. ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) [ > [@](#): > > After interrogation, a sandbag was put over his head. When he tried to remove it, guards made him jump up and down for 20 minutes with his wrists tied in front of him and then 20 minutes more with his wrists bound behind his back with a plastic binder. The bound and head-bagged man was put to bed. > [snip] > The next morning, he was found dead. The body had “bloodshot” eyes, lacerations on his wrists from the plastic ties, unexplained bruises on his abdomen, and a fresh, bruised laceration on the back of his head. US Army investigators noted that the body did not have defensive bruises on his arms, an odd notation given that a man cannot raise bound arms in defense. No autopsy was performed. The death certificate lists the cause of death as unknown. It seems likely that Mr. Kenami died of positional asphyxia because of how he was restrained, hooded, and positioned. Positional asphyxia looks just like death by a natural heart attack except for those telltale conjunctival hemorrhages in his eyes. ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) [ > [@](#): > > Adel is innocent. I don’t mean he claims to be. I mean the military says so. It held a secret tribunal and ruled that he is not al Qaeda, not Taliban, not a terrorist. The whole thing was a mistake: The Pentagon paid $5,000 to a bounty hunter, and it got taken. > > The military people reached this conclusion, and they wrote it down on a memo, and then they classified the memo and Adel went from the hearing room back to his prison cell. He is a prisoner today, eight months later. ]([http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/13/AR2005111301061.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/13/AR2005111301061.html)) [ > [@](#): > > U.S. authorities detained Arar in New York when he was returning from a family vacation in Tunisia in September 2002, accusing him of having terrorist connections. Though Arar, 35, is a dual citizen of Syria and Canada, the Americans deported him to Syria. He was held and interrogated for more than a year before Canadian officials finally had him returned to Canada. ]([http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/10/27/arar-torture051027.html](http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/10/27/arar-torture051027.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The extraordinary-rendition program bears little relation to the system of due process afforded suspects in crimes in America. Terrorism suspects in Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have often been abducted by hooded or masked American agents, then forced onto a Gulfstream V jet, like the one described by Arar. This jet, which has been registered to a series of dummy American corporations, such as Bayard Foreign Marketing, of Portland, Oregon, has clearance to land at U.S. military bases. Upon arriving in foreign countries, rendered suspects often vanish. Detainees are not provided with lawyers, and many families are not informed of their whereabouts. > > The most common destinations for rendered suspects are Egypt, Morocco, Syria, and Jordan, all of which have been cited for human-rights violations by the State Department, and are known to torture suspects. ]([http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa\_fact6](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6)) [ > [@](#): > > The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base located near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the U.S. occupation in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the report and accounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004, before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, but prior to when the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described in the Human Rights report occurred at Camp Tiger, near Iraq’s border with Syria, and previously in Afghanistan. In addition, the report details what the Captain says was his unsuccessful effort over 17 months to get the attention of military superiors. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The Human Rights Watch report—as well as accounts given to Senate staff—describe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring or covering it up. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The Captain is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel at Camp Mercury directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them to extremes of heat and cold—all methods designed to produce greater cooperation with interrogators. Non-uniformed personnel—apparently working for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to the soldiers—also interrogated prisoners. The interrogators were out of view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they came to believe was abuse. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced “pucks”)—or “persons under control.” A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says, involved off-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as “F\_\_\_\_a PUC” (beating the prisoner) and “Smoke a PUC” (forced physical exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and similar painful injuries would be treated with analgesics, the soldiers claim, as medical staff would fill out paperwork stating the injuries occurred during capture. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > Support for some of the allegations of abuse come from a sergeant of the 82nd Airborne who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Human Rights Watch quotes him as saying that, "To ‘F\_\_\_\_ a PUC’ means to beat him up. We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull them down, kick dirt on them. This happened every day. To ‘smoke’ someone is to put them in stress positions until they get muscle fatigue and pass out. That happened every day. Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > “Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport. The cooks were all U.S. soldiers. One day a sergeant shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy’s leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. He was the cook.” ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The Human Rights Watch report describes the Captain, in particular, as deeply frustrated by his attempts to report the abuse to his own superiors, who repeatedly instructed him to keep quiet, to ignore what he’d seen and to consider the implications for his career. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The Captain also says he was told there were pictures of abuse that occurred at Camp Mercury similar to photos taken by Military Police at Abu Ghraib prison. It is not clear whether the Captain saw the pictures, but he has said, sources tell TIME, that the photos were so similar to what was depicted at Abu Ghraib that, when the scandal erupted, soldiers burned them out of fear that they too could be punished. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > Since the Abu Ghraib scandal became public, hundreds of cases of alleged abuse have emerged based on reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross, U.S. government documents, prisoner legal filings and other sources. The Army alone says it has conducted investigations into more than 400 allegations of detainee mistreatment. To date, more than 230 Army personnel have been dealt with in courts martial, non-judicial punishments and other administrative actions. ]([http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan. The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA” (Other Governmental Agency) – a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA. > > According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides. Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel. The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,” “asphyxiation” and “blunt force injuries.” An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths” were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.” > > While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too. ]([http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19298&c=36](http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19298&c=36)) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/73 "2005-12-05T10:19:58Z")
[ > [@](#): > > NEW YORK, NY – More than 100 detainees have died in U.S. custody since 2002, Human Rights First research in a soon to be released report indicates, including 27 cases the Army has to date identified as suspected or confirmed homicides, and at least seven cases in which detainees were tortured to death. ]([http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005\_alerts/etn\_1019\_dic.htm](http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005_alerts/etn_1019_dic.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > New analysis by Human Rights First of dozens of deaths in U.S. custody reveals a pattern of grossly inadequate and flawed investigations – compromising the United States’ ability to hold individual wrongdoers accountable. The investigations have been flawed in various ways. (Case examples involving each of these flaws given at the end of this document; references available on request): > > - Criminal investigators have failed to interview key witnesses, collect useable evidence, or maintain evidence that could be used for any subsequent prosecution; > - Record keeping has been grossly inadequate, further undermining chances for prosecution; > - Overlapping criminal and administrative investigations instigated by the military have interfered with each other, and compromised chances for accountability; > - Commanders have repeatedly failed to report deaths of detainees in the custody of their command, reported the deaths only after a period of days and sometimes weeks, launched serious investigations only after a case became publicly known, or actively interfered in efforts to pursue investigations. ]([http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005\_alerts/etn\_1019\_dic.htm](http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005_alerts/etn_1019_dic.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > At the end of a secluded cul-de-sac, in a fast-growing Virginia suburb favored by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency, is a handsome replica of an old-fashioned farmhouse, with a white-railed front porch. The large back yard has a swimming pool, which, on a recent October afternoon, was neatly covered. In the driveway were two cars, a late-model truck, and an all-terrain vehicle. The sole discordant note was struck by a faded American flag on the porch; instead of fluttering in the autumn breeze, it was folded on a heap of old Christmas ornaments. > > The house belongs to Mark Swanner, a forty-six-year-old C.I.A. officer who has performed interrogations and polygraph tests for the agency, which has employed him at least since the nineteen-nineties. (He is not a covert operative.) Two years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanner’s custody, Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadi’s death as a “homicide,” meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and continues to work for the agency. ]([http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051114fa\_fact](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051114fa_fact)) [ > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, March 15 - At least 26 prisoners have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002 in what Army and Navy investigators have concluded or suspect were acts of criminal homicide, according to military officials. > [snip] > The new figure of 26 was provided by the Army and Navy this week after repeated inquiries. In 18 cases reviewed by the Army and Navy, investigators have now closed their inquiries and have recommended them for prosecution or referred them to other agencies for action, Army and Navy officials said. Eight cases are still under investigation but are listed by the Army as confirmed or suspected criminal homicides, the officials said. > > Only one of the deaths occurred at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, officials said, showing how broadly the most violent abuses extended beyond those prison walls and contradicting early impressions that the wrongdoing was confined to a handful of members of the military police on the prison’s night shift. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/politics/16abuse.html?ex=1132030800&en=d5e7e16b9f2feedb&ei=5070&pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/politics/16abuse.html?ex=1132030800&en=d5e7e16b9f2feedb&ei=5070&pagewanted=all)) [ > [@](#): > > Baker started having a seizure that morning and was whisked to the Naval Hospital at Guantanamo. “[He looked like] he’d had the crap beat out of him. He had a concussion. I mean, it was textbook,” says Riley. “[His face} was blank. You know, a dead stare, like he was seeing you, but really looking through you.” > > Baker was airlifted to the Portsmouth Naval Medical Center in Virginia, where doctors determined he had suffered an injury to the right side of his brain ]([http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/02/60II/main652953.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/02/60II/main652953.shtml)) [ > [@](#): > > The Los Angeles Times reports on suspicions about the death of an Iraqi scientist, Mohammed Abdelmonaem Mahmoud Hamdi Alazmirli, after nine months in U.S. custody. The U.S. said he died of “natural causes,” but his family authorized a private autopsy that found bruises, cuts and a fractured skull and blamed blunt force for the death. ]([http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/iraq/main620486.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/iraq/main620486.shtml)) [ > [@](#): > > Soldiers being told to “beat the fuck out of detainees”: Documents dated August 16, 2003, relating to an investigation into “alleged ROE and Geneva Convention violations” in Iraq include sworn statements relating to “Bulldog 6” telling soldiers to “take the detainee[s] out back and beat the fuck out of them.” ]([http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17835&c=206](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17835&c=206)) [ > [@](#): > > NEW YORK–The American Civil Liberties Union today released files obtained from the Army revealing previously undisclosed allegations of abuse by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Among the documents are reports that a detainee who was beaten and seriously injured was forced to drop his claims in order to be released from custody. ]([http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17515&c=206](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17515&c=206)) [ > [@](#): > > In one file released today, an Iraqi detainee claimed that Americans in civilian clothing beat him in the head and stomach, dislocated his arms, “stepped on [his] nose until it [broke],” stuck an unloaded pistol in his mouth and fired the trigger, choked him with a rope and beat his leg with a baseball bat. Medical reports corroborated the detainee’s account, stating that the detainee had a broken nose, fractured leg, and scars on his stomach. In addition, soldiers confirmed that Task Force 20 interrogators wearing civilian clothing had interrogated the detainee. However, after initially reporting the abuse, the detainee said that he was forced by an American soldier to sign a statement denouncing the claims or else be kept in detention indefinitely. He agreed. > > An investigator who reviewed the signed statement concluded that “[t]his statement, alone, is a prima facie indication of threats.” However, despite the medical report and testimony from other soldiers, the criminal file was ultimately closed on the grounds that the investigation had “failed to prove or disprove” the offenses. ]([http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17515&c=206](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17515&c=206)) [ > [@](#): > > NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public more than 1,800 pages documenting the investigation into at least three military units’ detainee operations in Iraq. Among the documents were reports of untrained soldiers using interrogation techniques they “remembered from the movies,” as well as reports of deaths that could have been prevented with proper training. ]([http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19088&c=36](http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19088&c=36)) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/74 "2005-12-05T14:26:18Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > These Marines chose to be in the Marines and probably believed in their military. What I like to call the Animal House Defense: **"You fucked up - you trusted us!"** ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/75 "2005-12-05T15:37:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If this is a reply to me, then please read the whole question and don’t edit my posts i.e. _“cite – **that the killed marines** were attacking another country”_. The US troops in Iraq are there with the permission and urging of the legal and UN approved Iraq government. So if you were thinking they were attacking a country at this particular moment when they were killed, you are wrong. If you were thinking of the US led invasion of Iraq under the previous Iraqi government. Can you provide a cite that says the killed marines were part of that invasion? Are you being paid by the Bush administration or something? Did a specific Marine participate in the invasion? Was a specific member of the government in power when this specific Marine landed in country? Was this specific Marine invited by a specific government to… The United States invaded, unless you are completely delusional, you have to admit that and we continue to occupy Iraq, you can’t deny that, can you? Your point is like saying during World War II that since a particular German soldier didn’t take part in the actual invasion of France his being stationed in Paris during the German occupation was by invitation of the French government. To many Iraqis, every American is the invader, is the attacker, is the occupier, is the enemy. Word games and requests for cites won’t change that. And because of that, Marines, soldiers and “contracted” civilians will continue to die. And “why” as the OP asks, remains a good question. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/76 "2005-12-05T19:13:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Ten more Marines died today and it gave me pause to think that these are ten more young lives in Iraq snuffed out …for what? > > Service to country seems kind of an abstract, bureaucratic reason to die. In a real pollitik sense what exactly are we accomplishing in Iraq at this point that worth this level of carnage? > > [10 U.S. Marines killed in bombing near Fallujah](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10294579/) I would say that they died because they believed that they are making Iraq a democratic country, free from a brutal dictator who kept the majority of his people in constant fear of torture and ethnic cleansing. They might have hoped that when they left Iraq the people, they would be free to vote assemble as they choose and could live peaceful and productive lives. They might have hoped there would be one more country in the Middle East that was pro-west. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/77 "2005-12-06T03:01:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > If this is a reply to me, then please read the whole question and don’t edit my posts i.e. _“cite – **that the killed marines** were attacking another country”_. The US troops in Iraq are there with the permission and urging of the legal and UN approved Iraq government. So if you were thinking they were attacking a country at this particular moment when they were killed, you are wrong. If you were thinking of the US led invasion of Iraq under the previous Iraqi government. Can you provide a cite that says the killed marines were part of that invasion? I didn’t edit your post. That quote is verbatim. I nominate this post as the dumbest of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/78 "2005-12-06T03:16:57Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I would say that they died because they believed that they are making Iraq a democratic country, free from a brutal dictator who kept the majority of his people in constant fear of torture and ethnic cleansing. If that’s the case, they died in the commission of a crime. Overthrowing governments and trying to force people to become (puppet) democracies is illegal under the UN Charter. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/79 "2005-12-06T03:45:23Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > No, **Dio** , it is not a factual observation. It is your own misguided opinion, nothing more and nothing less. You seem to have forgotten this thread: [**Clothahump’s** big steaming pile.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346902) I didn’t want you to forget, since you seem to have time for drive-by’s here. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790/80 "2005-12-06T12:53:39Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If that’s the case, they died in the commission of a crime. Overthrowing governments and trying to force people to become (puppet) democracies is illegal under the UN Charter. Let’s lock 'um all up! That’s your best answer? Why don’t you argue if thier goal is correct? Listen to the victemws of Saddam and let me know if you think their mission correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-marines-died-today-what-exactly-did-they-die-for/333790.md?page=5)