# Ten Years Ago, Most Dopers Were Against The War. I'm Proud of Us. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409 "2013-03-20T01:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/61 "2013-03-20T17:54:35Z")
Yes, to Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/62 "2013-03-20T17:58:44Z")
Our resistance to yet another religo-racist war didn’t stop said war. Fail. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/63 "2013-03-20T18:17:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Did you? > > I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and opposed the invasion of Iraq. I believe I was correct in both cases. > > The fact that the war in Afghanistan was subsequently screwed up doesn’t mean there was not cause for war. Supporting the aim of reducing al-Qaida and capturing or killing Osama bin Laden does not imply support for strategic incompetence. In fact, I’d say now, and have said in the past, that one of the reasons the war in Iraq was wrong is because it drew moral and material strength and support away from the war in Afghanistan. That covers me too. I remember watching Colin Powell try to convince the UN that Al Kaeda was involved in 9/11 and tight with Saddam. I wanted to hear a convincing argument from him, since it seemed a forgone conclusion that we’d be going to war with or without the UN (and with or without a good reason, it seems) and I hoped to hear convincing arguments. I was terribly disappointed. If I were a high school teacher, I’d have awarded him a C+ or B- at best, far below the A required for the purpose. I got the impression that he didn’t even buy his rhetoric, but was towing the party line. I wasn’t surprised when he resigned. I also remember hearing Bush promise that Iraq wouldn’t divert our attention from Afghanistan. I remember pointing at the TV and saying “LIAR!” That was about the last I heard of Afghanistan for several years. No surprise. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Require evidence, understand that the UN Security Council was designed by the permanent members for exactly that kind of (imperial) purpose, know that US media outlets are more interested in not being excluded than in an approximation of the truth, trust that any person and organisation will apologise for getting things ‘wrong’ after they have what they want. > > And finally - a hopeless wish in relation to the US - don’t ever let a businessman run the country, esp. a spoilt, non-achieving, ivy league bum. Yes, if only we could learn these lessons. Good luck to us with that. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/64 "2013-03-20T20:43:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But the tricky thing is: what _should_ have happened next? > > So: America has one of the most devastating terrorist attacks of all time happen right in the middle of its premier city, killing thousands. It’s both terrifying and…kinda humiliating. > > The American public would never have been satisfied with just, say, surgical strikes against key Al Qaeda leaders. > > Now _that’s obviously no defense of invasion_. All I’m trying to say is, realistically, there was only one option on the table and it was a significant military action to try to reassure the public and show the world that the US fights back. I don’t see how anything less stupid than the afghan invasion could have happened. Homer Simpson once toasted, “To alcohol, the cause of and solution to all of life’s problems.” American intervention plays a similar role in the Middle East. We [overthrow](http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php) the democratic government of Iran in 1953 and 60 years later Iran is a backwards dictatorship and we’re told that we need a strong military presence in the Middle East to contain the threat of Iran. We [get friendly](http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm) with Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War and then we end up waging two major wars against Hussein’s government. We [support resistance fighters in Afghanistan](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanistan_CIA_Taliban.html) during the Soviet invasion and many of those same fighters become part of the Taliban and Al Queda and use the weapons we gave them against us. We station troops in Saudi Arabia and anger over that helps motivate Al Queda to attack us. Etc… etc… Plainly American leadership is not capable of a foreign policy in the Middle East that work’s to our country’s long-term benefit. We are incapable of getting in there, accomplishing our goals, and getting out without creating some sort of consequences that provokes a worse backlash in the long run. The smart policy, then, would be one of having a minimal or no presence in the region. Of course, if our leaders actually had enough courage to take that policy, others would describe it as surrender or retreat, regardless of whether it occurred in 2001 or 2013 or 2023. But until we actually have the brains to not overreach and do stupid things in the Middle East, we’re going to continue causing trouble and making life worse for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/65 "2013-03-20T20:45:10Z")
SDMB opposed something cooked up by Republicans? You don’t say! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/66 "2013-03-20T20:52:55Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Anybody got a link to that particular thread/poll taken just before the start of the war? My cursory search didn’t turn it up. > > I remember vividly posting that I opposed the war. I sure hope my memory was accurate. March 12, 2003, on the eve of war, Sam Stone pens: [The Middle East Prediction Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=169260) Also: from July 2003 after things started to go south and some dwelled in denial, RTFirefly pens: [Liberals (and other Iraq skeptics) unite: take the Krauthammer Challenge!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199046) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/67 "2013-03-20T20:59:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > SDMB opposed something cooked up by Republicans? You don’t say! Before you crow about it, you should remember the SDMB was right and the Republicans were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/68 "2013-03-20T21:07:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Before you crow about it, you should remember the SDMB was right and the Republicans were wrong. Republicans are usually wrong, I’m more surprised that SDMB was right! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/69 "2013-03-20T21:18:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Did you? > > I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and opposed the invasion of Iraq. I believe I was correct in both cases. > > The fact that the war in Afghanistan was subsequently screwed up doesn’t mean there was not cause for war. Supporting the aim of reducing al-Qaida and capturing or killing Osama bin Laden does not imply support for strategic incompetence. In fact, I’d say now, and have said in the past, that one of the reasons the war in Iraq was wrong is because it drew moral and material strength and support away from the war in Afghanistan. Same here. Because of the 911 attacks, toppling the Taliban was justified under international law as our inherent right to self defense - which includes justifying our retaliation on those responsible or connected to the first strike attack of the magnitude of hitting the WTC and Pentagon. Iraq was a different story. Nothing similar to Afghanistan justified, morally or legally or defensively, our first strike attack and ground invasion of Iraq because Iraq by March was in full cooperation toward its compliance with the UN inspection process in accordance with UN Resolution 1441. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/70 "2013-03-20T21:28:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, some of the key SDMB cheerleaders for the war vanished after the WMD claims turned out to be false. They aren’t around to hear your I-knew-its. I had doubts, but I didn’t really wise up until the first APCs rolled into Baghdad. If Saddam had WMDs, he’d have hit his own city with them, to take out maximum numbers of US troops. He didn’t. After that, I knew we had been “had”.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/71 "2013-03-20T21:53:06Z")
I honestly can’t remember what I thought at the time. I mean, I know I eventually figured it out, but I don’t know if it was before or after it was obvious to everyone else. It would be nice to have records of my thoughts that far back. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/72 "2013-03-20T22:02:41Z")
Ah, found it! [War with Iraq: A simple Poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=170192&page=1&pp=50) started by **lightningtool** on March 16th, 2003 and wrapped up by March 20th, 2003. Results from that thread: 40% were in favor of the war, 60% opposed. I did indeed vote “No” to oppose the war on March 16th, 2003. (whew!) In this thread in 2006 [Where do you stand now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=383685) the voters in that first thread were asked how they felt about it over 3 years later. Interesting discussion then. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/73 "2013-03-20T22:34:01Z")
What were those people thinking, really? I mean, was the hysteria THAT bad? I never did understand at the time why so many people wanted to start a war with Iraq, but it’s even more baffling now. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/74 "2013-03-20T22:45:51Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Anybody got a link to that particular thread/poll taken just before the start of the war? My cursory search didn’t turn it up. > > I remember vividly posting that I opposed the war. I sure hope my memory was accurate. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > March 12, 2003, on the eve of war, Sam Stone pens: [The Middle East Prediction Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=169260) > > Also: from July 2003 after things started to go south and some dwelled in denial, RTFirefly pens: [Liberals (and other Iraq skeptics) unite: take the Krauthammer Challenge!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199046) [Might also have been my poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160123) (IIRC the polling feature was not yet available) of Feb.1 asking a yes or no about whether we should invade Iraq. Out of 125 respondents, I counted 73 nos. Didn’t count the rest but someone else earlier on counted 23 undecided, which means at most there were 30 yeses. The predictions thread was much more interesting, IMO. Almost everyone, even the most pessimistic, underestimated everything – the time, the cost, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/75 "2013-03-20T23:03:57Z")
IIRC, the best pre-invasion threads were in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/76 "2013-03-20T23:59:32Z")
**BrokenBriton** , your join date says 2012. Am I missing something? > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The predictions thread was much more interesting, IMO. Almost everyone, even the most pessimistic, underestimated everything – the time, the cost, etc. I like to think I was closest to being right. I was opposed to the war because it was one of aggression, but I was more opposed to it because I thought it was ludicrous to invade Iraq while we were in the middle of another war in Afghanistan. Even I had no idea it would drag out this long, though. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/77 "2013-03-21T00:06:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **BrokenBriton** , your join date says 2012. Am I missing something? > > I like to think I was closest to being right. I was opposed to the war because it was one of aggression, but I was more opposed to it because I thought it was ludicrous to invade Iraq while we were in the middle of another war in Afghanistan. Even I had no idea it would drag out this long, though. I didn’t read through all of them, but among those I did I think even sven was most on target (sorry, don’t think I read yours, so if you were closer, my apologies). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/78 "2013-03-21T00:19:40Z")
I didn’t post in that thread, as far as I can tell, but I did post in a number of related threads, such as [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3618660&postcount=245): > [@](#): > > Cecil hasn’t inserted an opinion. He has stated a fact. > > International relations as a studied concept largely begins with Thuycidides and the Peloponnesian War. Ever since then, it has been pretty much universally agreed attacking another state is justified in two situations: in repelling an EXTANT armed invasion, or in defending an allied state from such. Thus: Gulf War, justified; Gulf War- The Sequel, unjust. > > The fact that the people of Iraq happen to look suitably happy now that they’ve been “liberated” (they are, I remind you, effectively being administered by an occupying force) is neither here nor there. The people of Italy cheered for the Germans when they marched into Rome in WW2; they cheered just as loudly when the Americans showed up instead. > > When Cecil suggests that an unprovoked violation of the sovereignty of another nation is “damnfool”, he’s right. Whenever America has meddled in the affairs of other nations we usually make a pig’s ear out of it. > > If nothing else, its simply common sense that you end one war before beginning a new one. Afghanistan is further from being pacified now than it was 12 months ago, and the people of Afghanistan are, if anything, even more repressed… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/79 "2013-03-21T00:43:06Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I didn’t read through all of them, but among those I did I think even sven was most on target (sorry, don’t think I read yours, so if you were closer, my apologies). I think I nailed the “indefinite, unwinnable warfare that spawns more and more anger, terrorist groups, and general instability” angle. I was wrong about my theory that Iran was the ultimate target. It may be that we genuinely thought we could pull it off easily, and when we realized it couldn’t we had to rethink getting mixed up with Iran. But really, I’m now pretty convinced that we are more interested in saber rattling than anything else in that regard. I was also embarrassingly off about the UN, which I’ll chalk up to having been an undergrad film major with no real political science background a the time. Right now, I see a lot of merit to the geopolitical-based theory that we have no plan or real need to win any of these wars, and ultimately it’s about stirring the pot and keeping local power blocs from forming. Wow, we’ve been at this war a while, haven’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/80 "2013-03-21T01:10:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > … I was wrong about my theory that Iran was the ultimate target. … I think you were wrong, but in a different way than you do. I don’t think Iran was the “ultimate” target, just one of the targets. I think Syria was on the list too. If Iraq had been the predicted cakewalk, well, hell, then we’d a had a big ole army sitting there with nothing to do. I think there’s a good chance that if each country fell easily, we’d have just kept on going – just not getting too close to the Soviet border. Shit, what country over in that neighborhood _doesn’t_ harbor terrorists? Seriously, that’s the kind of thing neocons were considering. I think we might owe the Iraqis some thanks for putting up such a strong resistance for so long. The made it impossible for us to start maybe two or three more wars. But that’s just my paranoid liberal subconscious talking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409.md?page=5)