# Ten Years Ago, Most Dopers Were Against The War. I'm Proud of Us. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409 "2013-03-20T01:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/81 "2013-03-21T02:24:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Even Saddam thought he had WMDs! – his officials were afraid to tell him the truth. Not according to Saddam Hussein in December 2002 as the UN inspections were getting started. > [@](#): > > “We have told the world we are not producing these kind of weapons, but it seems that the world is drugged, absent or in a weak position,” President Saddam Hussein said. Also SH had his liason to the UN, invite the CIA into Iraq to find something if they thought it was there. That also does not fit with your claim about what Saddam Hussein ‘thought’. > [@](#): > > Iraq hits back with CIA offer; US agents invited to search for weapons > Ewen MacAskill, Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington and Richard Norton-Taylor > > The Guardian, Sunday 22 December 2002 19.29 EST > Baghdad fought back in the highly charged propaganda battle with the US and Britain yesterday by inviting its arch-enemy, the CIA, to enter Iraq and track down the country’s elusive weapons of mass destruction. > > The Iraqi offer of unhindered access to US intelligence agents came after intensive pressure from Washington that made war early in the new year appear almost inevitable. > > After four days of diplomatic pounding, Iraq hit back yesterday, accusing the Bush administration of rehashing old lies. > > “We have told the world we are not producing these kind of weapons, but it seems that the world is drugged, absent or in a weak position,” President Saddam Hussein said. > > At a press conference in Baghdad yesterday, General Amir al-Sadi, scientific adviser to the president, issued a challenge to the US and British intelligence to offer up hard evidence that Iraq has any biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. > > “We do not even have any objections if the CIA sent somebody with the inspectors to show them the suspected sites,” Gen Sadi said ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/82 "2013-03-21T03:34:34Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > IIRC, the best pre-invasion threads were in the Pit. Indeed. And so were the after-invasion ones. Just to name a couple: [**An Homage To Mr. Svinlesha**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278926) [**Useful Idiots: How many of you still think invading Iraq was a good idea?**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386542) [**Bushbots, since I can’t ask for your brains, get yer asses in here…**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=296817) [**So, how many of you dolts don’t know about the PNAC…**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408698) Can’t say why I remember them 😉 but I do remember The Pit being much more “fun” then, than it is now. Must say, I always posted back then (prior to the invasion) hoping against hope that _all the **evidence** against the invasion was wrong_. But I was right unfortunately. I understand the OP, it’s not about gloating but rather about not being sheeple… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/83 "2013-03-21T04:37:09Z")
Back then I was no too much involved in the forum, I was actually protesting. It was sad that it made no difference. I did take part later on many threads denouncing the stupidity after the invasion, but I did make it clear that I though it was a mistake to go to war in a thread about anti-war and classic protest songs that needed to be used once again. > **[The Best Anti-War/Protest Songs of All Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=167554)** > > What are the best peace songs, anti-war songs, protest songs of all time. Some of my favorites include: I ain’t marchin anymore Phil Ochs Ohio Neil Young Blowin’ in the Wind Bob Dylan Peace, Love, and Understanding Elvis Costello That’s just... I did go against tradition and suggested Men At Work – It’s A Mistake. The original target seems to have been Ronald Reagan and the cold war, but it made me think of the misguided dumbo commander in chief of 2003 and the message that the protesters world wide attempted to tell him: that it was a mistake. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XH7jm1WwaXs/maxresdefault.jpg "Men at Work - It's A Mistake") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jm1WwaXs) Whoa, get ready to feel old, that song from the MTV era is now 30 years old… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/84 "2013-03-21T07:22:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, what do you think the take-away lesson should be? Don’t trust George W. Bush again? Okay, but that’s not really an issue anymore. > > Don’t believe any President ever again? Don’t ever go to war again? Don’t ever trust anyone again? The lesson is, “Read James Fallows”. Understand that threat inflation exists: the Cuban Missile Crisis is the only post WWII example where things were worse than the government indicated. Every other time it was the other way around. So the next time war is called for, discount the alleged threat by a hefty margin. Here’s a list of other things we won’t learn: [QUOTE=James Fallows] 3) The recurring pattern of error. When politicians and the media were “wrong” about Iraq, what did wrongness entail? Reduced to its essence it meant: [ul] [li] Exaggerating the scale and imminence of a threat from Iraq;[/li] [li] Growing testily impatient with any solutions other than the “kinetic” (e.g., from TNY 10 years ago, “a return to a hollow pursuit of containment will be the most dangerous option of all.”);[/li] [li] Grossly underestimating the difficulty of “removing” that threat with military force;[/li] [li] Showing a failure of tragic imagination (different from a tragic failure of imagination, which was also true) about the ripple effects and long-term costs and consequences of taking a clear and “decisive” step now. [/ul][/li] If we were to “learn” from mistakes, we might avoid this specific set of biases and miscalibrations when it comes to another “preventive” strike against another threatening nation in exactly the same part of the world. But we see every one of these four elements of this syndrome – **exaggeration, impatience, polyanna-ism about military measures, naivete about long-term effects** - in discussions about the “need” and “moral duty” to condone military action against Iran. [/QUOTE] The bolded parts, added by me, is what you should look out for. > **[Why We Won't Learn From Iraq](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/why-we-wont-learn-from-iraq/274140/)** > > An enormous mistake, which probably will not prove "instructive" ## James Fallows’ blog: [James Fallows, The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/james-fallows/) ## More generally, the peace movement has a flaccid research wing. What we need is what Charlie Munger calls a checklist procedure when somebody calls for armed conflict. Oppose all conflicts unless you’ve at least _considered_ every box – and keep in mind the fact that the MSM will term that as hand wringing and encourage you to get with the program. It’s no mystery that the Iraq War’s 10 year anniversary isn’t getting a lot of airplay: it would make the heads on the air look bad. More mea culpas from Ezra Klein: ["I supported the Iraq War and I’m sorry](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-19/mistakes-excuses-and-painful-lessons-from-the-iraq-war.html)." You see he supported Kenneth Pollack’s Iraq War and figured that GWBush’s team would be a decent approximation of the same. Bad move. If the Executive Branch happens to be packed with incompetent hacks _it matters_. In fact it can make the difference between “Smart to support” and “Smart to oppose”, although not in the case of Iraq IMO. Yes, this will involve an assessment tinged by partisanship. _But that fact doesn’t contradict its necessity._ ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/85 "2013-03-21T07:53:38Z")
I wasn’t around this board in those days, but I took loads of shit from others for sticking to my position that whether or not Saddam had WMD’s or not was of no consequence. WMD’s were always a bogeyman, whether or not they actually existed. In what sense was owning such devices a justification for war? I didn’t get it then, and I still don’t get why so many people point to the fact that the WMD’s weren’t found as the ultimate damnation of the whole effort. What the hell could Saddam have done with them even if he had them? We were already sanctioning and no-flying the bejesus out of the place. Rattling the rocks in Afghanistan was sadly necessary after 911, but an invasion of Iraq was never anything but foolish regardless of how many aluminum tubes were discovered in someone’s basement. It does bear repeating, however, that 10 years ago there was broad support amongst the US public for the invasion of Iraq. There was broad support in the media, and in the Congress. All of this support was centered around the bogeyman that Saddam had WMD’s. 10 years later I am still chilled by the evidence that an entire population can be moved to lethal folly by nothing more than an appeal to phantom threat. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/86 "2013-03-21T08:38:04Z")
Reading aubries’ “Damn fool war” thread is eye-opening. Particularly the folks who claim to be fans of Cecil’s work but are dismayed and disgusted with Cecil injecting his personal opinion of the war into his own writings, and how they’ll trust him as being unbiased a lot less in the future. From thelark, who from post number 4 trumpeting the virtues of the war and shaming Cecil, to Marsupial’s message from deep in bizarro-world USA in post 16, to hajario wondering how this war was in any way like Vietnam. Post 145 sums up just how ridiculously short-sighted the pro-war crowd were. Short-sighted as in, “…six days, six weeks. I doubt six months”. thelark just in general making the whole thread a barrel of laughs. Sad laughs, but laughs nonetheless. Going over braintree’s posts as one of the few beacons of sanity in a clearly dumb universe. And of course Cecil, who shows up and addresses the only pertinent question posed all thread. Thanks for posting that [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=176563). Was one of the more interesting reads I’ve seen in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/87 "2013-03-21T15:45:54Z")
Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing…you will find a liberal licking his boots. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/88 "2013-03-21T15:48:02Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. There are lots of them out there. Should we just put them in order and start going to war with all of them? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/89 "2013-03-21T15:48:02Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. False dichotomy, **Son**. Certainly not up to the standards of debate of **Jim**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/90 "2013-03-21T16:23:30Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. Those who think this is a sensible argument should be honest enough to wear a dunce cap at all times. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/91 "2013-03-21T16:34:23Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. The converse of that argument is that those who supported the war should be honest enough to say that they support the loss of nearly 5,000 American lives. Do you get to support the war and oppose the loss of American life? Then we get to oppose the war and oppose a terrible dictator. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/92 "2013-03-21T16:35:10Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. Looking at the [Freedom House](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World) index, there are 47 nations classified as non-free. Better get those tanks rolling! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/93 "2013-03-21T16:41:00Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. Lets not go for even older than 30 years logical fallacies. > **[Affirming the consequent](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent)** > > Affirming the consequent (or fallacious modus ponens) is a logical fallacy confusing the directionality of if-then propositions, and named after the consequent in the conditional statement (Q in "if P, then Q"). The modern variation that you are using is almost the same as Terrorism-baiting. > **[Terrorism-baiting](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Terrorism-baiting)** > > Terrorism-baiting is a neologism, coined as a parallel to Red-baiting, referring to the practice of trying to discredit critics of the United States' current Middle Eastern foreign policy by falsely asserting that the critics are in league with,... [And one should not ever forget that it is very likely that the number of civilians dead as a consequence of the invasion was much bigger than just 100,000](http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/30/us-iraq-deaths-survey-idUSL3048857920080130) (100,000 is in itself an unjustifiable number and no, not just the much maligned Lancet surveys were the only ones that arrived to a larger number) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/94 "2013-03-21T16:43:20Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. Oh man, you totally called me out here. Go oppression! Autocrats FTW! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/95 "2013-03-21T17:25:45Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Those who were against the war should be honest enough to say they are in favor of brutal dictators > who murdered hundreds of thousands of people, tried to acquire WMD, suppressed basic freedoms and paid bounties every time a terrorist killed an Israeli. Whenever you find a brutal mass murderer: Stalin, Mao, Idi Amin, Husseing..you will find a liberal licking his boots. This is not an argument. And “Husseing”? Who da’ fuck is that? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/96 "2013-03-21T17:35:07Z")
It’s the participle form of _Hussy_, of course. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/97 "2013-03-21T17:41:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s the participle form of _Hussy_, of course. :smack: And here I though it was a murderous Chinese dish! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/98 "2013-03-21T18:50:04Z")
I wasn’t part of the SDMB at the time but I was on another board. I hated the Iraq war because I felt it was ill-defined and murky and took our attention away from Afghanistan. Never did I believe in the stupid WMD reasoning. The fault of that came from Bush’s own mouth. First it was because of 9/11, which was false, then it was humanitarian reasons, then it was WMD. I think the night before the invasion, Bush went on TV and said that if Saddam left, he wouldn’t attack Iraq. Those shifting goalposts and unclear objectives told me all I needed to know about what we’re really in Iraq for and made me very skeptical about the whole thing. It was not comfortable being against the war in 2003, many people took a lot of shit for it ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/99 "2013-03-21T18:53:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But the tricky thing is: what _should_ have happened next? > > So: America has one of the most devastating terrorist attacks of all time happen right in the middle of its premier city, killing thousands. It’s both terrifying and…kinda humiliating. > > The American public would never have been satisfied with just, say, surgical strikes against key Al Qaeda leaders. > > Now _that’s obviously no defense of invasion_. All I’m trying to say is, realistically, there was only one option on the table and it was a significant military action to try to reassure the public and show the world that the US fights back. I don’t see how anything less stupid than the afghan invasion could have happened. I guess I expect more from my leaders than to cower like that. If not invading was the right thing to do, even if it would have lost them the election, I would hope that they would have refrained from it. Sure, we were devastated, sure we were humiliated, but throwing a tantrum is what a child does, not the most powerful country in the world. Plus, if Bush and co. had been truthful from the beginning, I think surgical strikes and small-scale attacks could have been widely supported. We didn’t need to invade Afghanistan, a barely-together country run by religious fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409/100 "2013-03-21T19:07:31Z")
The initial invasion of Afghanistan toppled the Taliban government and was fine. Control should have been turned over quickly to existing non-Taliban leaders (yes, many were corrupt – what else is new?) and large funds should have been provided with few strings attached to build goodwill and help the Afghan people. Instead Afghanistan had to be turned into yet another Friedmanist experiment, based on “creative destruction,” and with local politics bypassed to install an American-selected leader. Even worse, Afghan laborers and companies were bypassed in infrastructure-building contracts, to maximize graft for buddies of the Cheney-Rove Administration. Anyone who has anything good to say about post-invasion U.S. behavior in Iraq or Afghanistan is under-informed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ten-years-ago-most-dopers-were-against-the-war-im-proud-of-us/653409.md?page=6)