# Tennessee bus hijacking shows need for 50-state concealed-carry gun laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2001, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760 "2001-10-11T09:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/1 "2001-10-11T09:16:49Z")
The following is a Libertarian Party press release * * * WASHINGTON, DC – In the wake of the Tennessee bus hijacking yesterday that left six people dead, every state should immediately pass Vermont-style concealed-carry gun laws so Americans can defend themselves against terrorists or deranged murderers, the Libertarian Party said today. “Let’s put the Second Amendment to work to protect Americans,” said the party’s national director, Steve Dasbach. “The best defense against hijackers – or run-of-the-mill copycat madmen – is to give every American the legal right to own a gun and carry it everywhere.” Early Wednesday, a Croatian man used a box cutter to slash the throat of a Greyhound bus driver just outside Manchester, Tennessee. The man then grabbed the steering wheel and attempted to drive the bus into oncoming traffic. The bus tipped over, killing at least six people including the hijacker, and injuring 34 others. Greyhound temporarily suspended bus service following the attack, but the U.S. Justice Department said the hijacking was probably not related to the September 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Police speculated that the hijacker was a mentally unbalanced copycat criminal. Whatever the man’s motivation, the attack points out that no form of transportation is safe from potential attack, said Dasbach – which is why every law-abiding American needs the right to carry a concealed weapon. “After terrorists hijacked four airliners on September 11, the consensus was that greater airport security could stymie such attacks,” he said. "That may be true, but a similar solution won’t protect Americans who use buses, trains, taxicabs, or other forms of travel. There are simply too many modes of public transportation. "The only way to keep Americans safe is to decentralize protection: Give every law-abiding citizen the right to carry a weapon at all times. “No, that won’t stop every attempted hijacking – and may not even have stopped the tragedy in Tennessee – but criminals and terrorists will be far less likely to attack if they know they’ll be staring down the business end of a dozen American guns.” Currently, 31 states have “shall-issue” concealed-carry laws, which require the state government to issue a gun permit to any resident who is not disqualified by a felony conviction, mental illness, or similar objection. Tennessee has a “shall-issue” law, but its permit is reciprocally honored in only 12 other states, and Tennessee honors only nine other states’ permits. That’s a problem, said Dasbach, because the bus that was hijacked in Tennessee originated in Chicago, Illinois and was heading for Atlanta, Georgia. Only one of those states (Georgia) had a reciprocal permit agreement with Tennessee – making it impossible for passengers to legally carry a weapon for the duration of the trip. “America needs 50-state reciprocity,” he said. “A gun permit valid in one state should be equally valid in all 50 states. That’s the only way to protect people on interstate trips.” To make that protection as easy as possible to acquire, every state should pass gun permit legislation modeled after Vermont’s gun law, said Dasbach. In Vermont, any citizen can carry a firearm without getting a permit, without paying a fee, and without any government-mandated waiting period. Despite the ease with which people can acquire guns – or perhaps because of it – Vermont enjoys the second-lowest crime rate in America, noted Dasbach. “The conventional wisdom is that more guns equal more crime,” he said. “But Vermont is stark proof that more guns, and easier access to guns, are the best possible deterrent to crime.” However, evidence of the “More Guns/Less Crime” principle extends beyond Vermont, said Dasbach. In October 2000, the FBI released a report showing that gunshot wounds inflicted during crimes decreased by 40% from 1992 and 1997 – falling from 64,100 to 39,400 nationwide. During the same five years, the number of guns in America increased by 12% – surging from 205 million to 230 million, according to the National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers. Also, according to a study by John Lott and David Mustard at the University of Chicago, concealed-carry handgun laws reduced murder rates by 8.5% in those states that passed such laws, compared to states which make gun ownership difficult or impossible. Had such right-to-carry laws been in effect all 50 states, there would be 1,600 fewer murders every year, they reported. Given all this evidence, Job #1 in the war against terrorism should be to give Americans the right to own and carry a firearm, said Dasbach. “In memory of the victims of the Tennessee bus hijacking, every state should immediately pass a Vermont-style gun law, and make it reciprocal with every other state,” he said. “Politicians need to make it as easy for every American to buy and carry a gun as it is to buy a bus ticket. By doing so, they’ll make it easier for the next would-be terrorist to buy a one-way ticket to an early grave.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/2 "2001-10-11T09:21:25Z")
It is arguable that, had the September 11 hijackers known that many passengers on board were armed, they might have considered some alternative method of terrorism. Why not offer guns to passengers who have completed the NRA Basic Firearm Training Courses as they board the planes? ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/3 "2001-10-11T09:22:36Z")
Or we could issue everyone with neck braces to protect against box cutters **runs like the wind** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/4 "2001-10-11T10:07:09Z")
Before you run too far, I’d like to know whether _you_ would attempt, with your box cutter, to hijack a plane loaded with armed passengers ? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/5 "2001-10-11T10:14:19Z")
Not sure if this OP is veiled sarcasm. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow 4 terrorists pulled box cutters on a plane, they would be able to take control of the aircraft? If the answer is “no”, then your point is moot. If everyone can take a concealed weapon onto public transport, then won’t the perps also use concealed guns? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/6 "2001-10-11T10:14:48Z")
I’ve got no problem with people carrying weapons. I just don’t think they should be allowed to conceal them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/7 "2001-10-11T10:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Not sure if this OP is veiled sarcasm. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow 4 terrorists pulled box cutters on a plane, they would be able to take control of the aircraft? If the answer is “no”, then your point is moot. If everyone can take a concealed weapon onto public transport, then won’t the perps also use concealed guns? \*\* Well, 4 perps divided into 120 nonperps = 1 in 30. Tough odds. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/8 "2001-10-11T10:37:04Z")
It is just as arguable that the crazed loon who committed this particular crime would have been armed, in which case instead of slitting the throat of the bus driver (who actually survived the attack) he would have just capped him. Notwithstanding the weapons being carried by said attacker, immediately after any nonsense going on some of the armed people on the bus would open fire _on an erratically moving vehicle_, and slaughter everyone in front of them. If they were paying enough attention to know that the assailant was at the _front_ of the bus. This was an overnight trip, after all. Passing a training course does not make someone competent to judge when their firearm should be used. You’re acting as if hijackers/terrorists are sane, logical people. If they were, they wouldn’t be willing to give up their lives to achieve their goals. I can tell you this: the moment planes, trains, and buses start letting passengers carry firearms is the same moment that their passengers start paying cab drivers to take them across country. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/9 "2001-10-11T11:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re acting as if hijackers/terrorists are sane, logical people. If they were, they wouldn’t be willing to give up their lives to achieve their goals. The whole point of arming the passengers is so the loonies _won’t achieve_ their goals. The terrorists were far from insane. They were rational, conniving, deliberate murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/10 "2001-10-11T12:04:59Z")
No, murder was either a side effect of their goals, or the means to their goal. What Taliban terrorists want is the complete disruption of the Western world’s economy. They want to make us all nervous, scared, trigger-happy, and afraid to go outside. They want to make us all as poor as they are. Nobody knows what the loonie on the bus wanted (aside from the time and the front seat, according to witness reports). ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/11 "2001-10-11T12:17:21Z")
I refer the OP to the my comments in the following threads that dealt extensively with the same topic: [A Simple Solution for Air Safety - What’s Wrong with it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88822) [Could the 2nd amendment prevented the attack on the TTC Pentigon?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86529) And don’t forget that **Weird\_Al** classic, [My Solution – Archie Bunker Lite"](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88208). This is a very, very bad idea, **Libertarian**. I am pleased to know that it has no chance whatsoever of ever being permitted in any way, shape or form on any American airliner. ---
**Author:** ![skripek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7bcc69/32.png) [@skripek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skripek)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/12 "2001-10-11T12:46:48Z")
I am not so sure I agree with allowing concealed carry weapons (CCW) on an airplane. The problem I have with CCW’s on airplanes is that first off by allowing it you invite every nutcase who can pay a permit fee the ability to take his hand cannon (people tend to buy much more powerful weapons then they realize) aboard the airplane. Now, said nutcase is on the airplane when someone he doesn’t like the looks of starts acting strangely. Maybe someone is airsick, infirm, etc. but not neccisarlily a person with alterior motives. This creates a situation where a zelot with a large caliber weapon who may discharge it on the airplane. That also means that there is a very good chance of not only innocent people gettting hurt by a stray bullet at the least, but I am more then sure that a .40 caliber slug has more then enough power to go through the aluminium skin of the aircraft. Another sticking point to this would be the fact that you need a CCW permit for each state that you plan to travel through. Some states won’t even issue permits to out of state residents, while others don’t allow CCW at all. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/13 "2001-10-11T12:54:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > > \*\*Not sure if this OP is veiled sarcasm. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow 4 terrorists pulled box cutters on a plane, they would be able to take control of the aircraft? If the answer is “no”, then your point is moot. If everyone can take a concealed weapon onto public transport, then won’t the perps also use concealed guns? \*\* > > Well, 4 perps divided into 120 nonperps = 1 in 30. Tough odds. \*\* Well, 4 perps, 4 stewardesses with guns at their heads, and a couple of passengers packin’ heat = lotta dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/14 "2001-10-11T13:53:36Z")
Before I get labeled as some anti-gun zealot, let me first state that although I don’t own a single firearm, I don’t have a problem with if other qualified people choose to own them so long as they use them in a responsible manor. By ‘trained’ and ‘responsible’ I mean to imply that some form of gun control should always be in place (but we needn’t hijack this thread to debate the type and extent of control). I attempted to make my feelings clear in the infamous [Archie Bunker](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88208) thread, but since this OP is a bit different, allow me to restate. Adding weapons _escalates_ a volatile a situation while a reliable program to keep weapons off public transportation is a large step towards _diffusing_ these same situations. In this Greyhound anecdote, if the attacker had been shot and killed after killing the driver, you are still faced with an out of control bus just as in the original scenario. Would it not have been better to increase screening at the terminal and prevent the attacker from bringing on board his weapon in the first place? If the addition of guns is meant to in some way level the playing field, would not the removal of guns level the field in much the same way? At least in the latter case most of the stupid altercations that we know happen from time to time shouldn’t escalate to much more than a bloody nose. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/15 "2001-10-11T14:11:09Z")
Question: On a bus, a man attacks the driver and the bus goes out of control. Everyone panics. People with concealed weapons stand up and try to shoot the driver’s attacker. In a moving, possibly very out of control, bus with people panicing the chances of hitting an innocent are very great. An NRA basic trainign course will not make you a good shooter. Does the shooter get tried for manslaughter, murder or anything like that even though he was trying to defend the passengers? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/16 "2001-10-11T14:13:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \*If the addition of guns is meant to in some way level the playing field, would not the removal of guns level the field in much the same way? No, because a criminal is apt to disobey the law and carry a gun anyhow. > [@](#): > > At least in the latter case most of the stupid altercations that we know happen from time to time shouldn’t escalate to much more than a bloody nose. Trouble with this argument is that it’s theoretical. In practice, there are already plenty of jurisdictions that permit concealed carry, but we’re not actually seeing bunches of altercations growing into shootouts. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/17 "2001-10-11T14:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Adding weapons escalates a volatile a situation while a reliable program to keep weapons off public transportation is a large step towards diffusing these same situations. I think you missed most of the OP, including this: “Despite the ease with which people can acquire guns – or perhaps because of it – Vermont enjoys the second-lowest crime rate in America, noted Dasbach.” > [@](#): > > If the addition of guns is meant to in some way level the playing field, would not the removal of guns level the field in much the same way? You mean by enacting and enforcing laws? If criminals obeyed laws, I’d see your point. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/18 "2001-10-11T14:26:26Z")
Ok, so you allow people to carry guns everywhere at all times. People know that wherever they go, there will be hundreds of armed people waiting to plug them if they step out of line. Isn’t this kind of like making it mandatory to carry a gun? And God help you if you just don’t _want_ to carry one in this hypothetical society, for you may someday find yourself the only person in the crowd without lethal force. Better let that other guy have the parking space. Better let this dude ahead of you in line. Better go sit at the back of the bus. In face, better not express any unpopular opinions whatsoever, because who’ll protect you then? **Libertarian**? He can’t be everywhere at once, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/19 "2001-10-11T14:28:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Despite the ease with which people can acquire guns – or perhaps because of it – Vermont enjoys the second-lowest crime rate in America, noted Dasbach. Can you supply a study that links Vermont’s low crime rate in any way with their gun control laws? This is _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ reasoning. Is it possible Vermont’s socio-economic situation, lack of truly large urban areas, etc. is responsible and not their guns? > [@](#): > > You mean by enacting and enforcing laws? If criminals obeyed laws, I’d see your point. I agree that criminals will not voluntarily obey laws, but I was referring to the Greyhound anecdote. It is a perfectly reasonable goal to see to it that weapons do not make it onto busses. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760/20 "2001-10-11T14:31:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I think you missed most of the OP, including this: “Despite the ease with which people can acquire guns – or perhaps because of it – Vermont enjoys the second-lowest crime rate in America, noted Dasbach.” > \*\* You ever been to Vermont? It’s also a small rural state with no big cities, not really much urban poverty, and where the three most pressing state issues are the renewal of the Northeast Dairy Compact, whether or not gay people should get married, and worries that Massachusetts yuppies moving in will cause inflation. People in Vermont don’t, for the most part buy guns for protection, they buy them for deer hunting, and even if there were strict gun laws, Vermont wouldn’t be a hotbed of crime. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tennessee-bus-hijacking-shows-need-for-50-state-concealed-carry-gun-laws/86760.md?page=2)