# Tens of Thousands March in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262 "2003-12-11T03:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/181 "2004-04-06T04:44:43Z")
Judging by the Washington Post cite in **SimonX** ’s last post, Richard N Perle has done more to earn a couple of years’ torture at Gitmo than some of the “terrorists” held there. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/182 "2004-04-06T05:14:21Z")
> [@buns3000](#): > > Judging by the Washington Post cite in **SimonX** ’s last post, Richard N Perle has done more to earn a couple of years’ torture at Gitmo than some of the “terrorists” held there. From your lips to God’s ears. Just to beat **lucy**. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/183 "2004-04-06T06:27:52Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Don’t forget that Hussein _was_ “useful, just like Musharaff.” and just like Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan who’s also “with us” in the WoT. Now you get me all depressed. But all joking aside, this world is a sordid place, full of all sorts of power-hungry scumbags, and when dealing with such people one can’t afford to take a back seat, but has to assume the initiative. Whatever questionable deals we had with different despots, it is not US fault they were there. Although I’m sure a few examples can be found when we supported a real villain against somewhat more respectable opponent. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/184 "2004-04-06T06:47:02Z")
Since **Shodan** is having problems comprehending my earlier post, I’ll spell it out in simple terms: 1. During Clinton’s terms in office, the **Republican Party** didn’t give two toots about liberating the poor oppressed Iraqi people. They were too busy sniffing around Bill’s closet to care about them. 2. During Clinton’s terms in office, a handful of **neo-conservatives at the PNAC** were having wet dreams about invading Iraq and grabbing all that oil. 3. The **Republican Party** and the **neo-conservatives at the PNAC** didn’t have intersecting goals until Bush got selected in 2000. Keep reading those three sentences until they sink in; I’m sure you can manage it, eventually… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/185 "2004-04-06T07:54:18Z")
[QUOTE=New Iskander] … this world is a sordid place, full of all sorts of power-hungry scumbags, and when dealing with such people one can’t afford to take a back seat, but has to assume the initiative. …QUOTE] Platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. It is amazing to me that fear has allowed GW to run this bullshit on so many people. Our president hasn’t been a success in much of any scheme he has tried and his current operations fit his pattern. Big start, then fizzle … This thread started when **Sam Stone** found a puff piece about “thousands” of Iraqis marching for “something-to-be-determined-later” back in 2003. Has anybody noticed what a whole bunch of Iraqis are marching for now? GW, lad, where did all the flowers go? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/186 "2004-04-06T10:27:03Z")
Young girls pick them, every one When will we ever learn? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/187 "2004-04-06T11:36:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Young girls pick them, every one > When will we ever learn? That’s mega-bad imagery dude. Flowers-\>Young girls-\>Husbands-\>Soldiers-\>Graveyards-\>Flowers ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/188 "2004-04-06T12:22:26Z")
**New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > _Why so harsh? Who do we, “those who supported the war”, irk you so much?_ The list is long. First off, we have the **lies**. There have been so many lies about this war. Some of them were subtle. Some of them were tricky. ( **Simon X** , in fact, was forced to develop a new term – the “not-lie” – to try capture their essence). Others were transparent. It didn’t matter though. Those who supported the war not only believed in the lies, subtle, tricky, or transparent – they actively promoted them. People like **december** , **Shodan** , **Sam** , and you have played the role of “enablers.” You’ve chosen to go forth to spread the gospel of lies. At literally every opportunity – although of late the opportunities have been sparse – you’ve chosen the path of willful gullibility. This thread is one example. **Sam’s** recent thread about the al-Zarqwai letter was another, albeit at this late date, very tentative. He posted another one about all the wonderful things the CPA had accomplished not long ago, also chock-full of disinformation. So basically, you are liars. All of you. You may have earnestly believed, prior to the invasion, that Iraq really was a threat, and that it really did possess “WMDs;” but to ignore the issue afterwards, to try to pretend that it was never important in the first place, etc., is low beyond belief. It reveals the lies for what they really were; a distracting pretense to enable an illegitimate act of aggression. So that’s one thing. Then there’s the **contempt** , and the **hypocrisy** , with which we who have opposed the war are greeted. The pretense to moral and intellectual superiority. Consider an example from this thread, by **Shodan**. First post after its revival, he opens thusly: > [@](#): > > - Well, as long as this stupid thread popped back up, I will ignore the usual garbage in favor of this.\* What garbage might that be, I wonder? The fact that he is wrong, yet again? After accusing everyone who disagrees with the OP of “intellectual dishonest” (practiced habitually, I assume, since it was “nothing new”), he closes snidely: > [@](#): > > - Back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk.\* Sweet. And how ironic, after being subjected to two years of lies from Bush and his supporters, to be accused of intellectual dishonesty by such a worthy as **Shodan**. Let us once again roll back the [mists of time](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160949&page=3&pp=50&highlight=Iraq), and consider some of **Shodan’s** arguments prior to the invasion: > [@](#): > > \*All these arguments that Iraq doesn’t pose a direct threat to the US boil down to arguments that we should wait until it is too late to do anything. > > I suspect several earlier posters were correct - we could publish an authenticated picture of Saddam Hussein pointing to an ICBM full of plutonium, and some people would say “There’s no indication that he is going to aim it at the US - let’s let the inspectors do their work.” > > Another indication, I suppose, that the far left in the US is becoming increasingly marginalized. Thank God…. > > I am accusing the hard left in the US and across the world of being strategically short-sighted, isolationist, reflexively anti-American and pro-appeasement, and almost breath-takingly stupid…. > > I am accusing them of attempting to force implementation of tactics similar to those used to get North Korea to abandon its nuclear program, and Hitler to abandon his program of conquering Europe….december characterizes this as conservatives learning from their mistakes. Perhaps so. But liberals in this thread have claimed, in the teeth of the evidence, that Saddam does not have WMD, or that he has been contained and poses no particular threat…. > > It has, unfortunately, gone way beyond the point of sober reflection. Some liberals now are attempting to deny reality. To claim that the evidence is ambiguous that Saddam “may or may not” have WMD is to take that step.\* Now, time has shown that we were right, and **Shodan** wrong. Does this matter to him? Do we see a public recantation, an admission of error, anywhere? An apology, perhaps, for the hateful tone he had adopted prior to the war, towards those of us who desperately tried to warn him, and people like him, that this was going to be an expensive, dangerous mistake? Even a slight sign of regret, or remorse? Perhaps we on the “left” (nota bene: **Simon X** is a conservative) were not so “short-sighted” or “breathtakingly stupid,” after all? Perhaps friend **Shodan** should take a step back and reevaluate his opinion? No. Like an adroit eel, he merely squirms over to the next talking point. Now, he says, the whole thing is about human rights; establishing a democracy in Iraq. Let us pretend like “WMDs” were never important, stop discussing them, ignore them. And while soldiers are fighting and dying in Iraq, he wastes his time, and ours, by trying to score irrelevant debating points against **rjung** : as if, by that act, he can somehow vindicate the entire mess his boy Bush has gotten us into. Myopic, I think, is the word. Well, look. You were warned. I, myself, stayed out of this particular discussion, because I felt I didn’t quite know enough about Iraq to have an opinion one way or the other. I’ve spent the last year trying to learn about the region’s culture, religions, and so on. Truth to tell, I’d just as soon never have heard of Muqtada al-Sadr, but there you go. Now I need to know about him. But many specialists, far more well-educated than I, warned that setting up a democracy in Iraq would be nigh-impossible, that it was a neo-con pipe dream. A patch-work of tribal and ethnic rivals interlaced with strong currents of millennial, Islamic fundamentalism, they warned, would be difficult to turn into a modern democratic state. You can’t arrest Muqtada, or condemn his followers. He speaks for an estimated 30% of the Shiite community in Iraq, and perhaps as much as 50%. _These are the people you’ve come to liberate_, get it? They support Hamas and Hizbollah; they are anti-Semetic to the core; they hate Israel and the US, these poor downtrodden victims of Hussein’s regime. Nice going, guys. We were accused of being dishonest. We were accused of being unintelligent. We were accused of partisanship by blatant partisans. Even now, they keep trying to pretend like they are somehow superior. > [@](#): > > - Hope you can make a connection.\* No, gee, I’m just too stupid to make a connect, **Mr. Iskander** , sir. You know us stoopid lefties. Can’t you make it for me? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/189 "2004-04-06T13:01:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [This plan.](http://cryptome.org/rad.htm) Now **rjung** will have to make up his mind if this is a bad thing because they intended to neutralize Saddam pre-9/11, or a bad thing because they didn’t. > > Or both, or neither, or something. > > Regards, > Shodan Ah, now I understand. It was a _secret_ plan advocated by a bunch of out of power ideologists. And when did that come up in the election? I don’t remember the President and Vice-President Gore talking about the _secret plan for global domination_ in the course of the televised debates. I don’t remember any public discussion of “The Rumsfeld Doctrine” (Carthage and /or Iraq must be destroyed). It is interesting to note that our friend’s post amounts to an abandonment of any claim that Iraq was in any significant way a threat to the United States or in any way connected with Jahadist terrorism. The destruction of Iraq was a matter of long standing, albeit secret, policy based on the economics of Light Arab Crude. Now, that is refreshing. It is like the “Big Dawg” throry of international politics. Reprehensible, but refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/190 "2004-04-06T14:19:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought you lefties were the ones pitching a fit because Republicans had a plan (before 9/11 - horrors) to force Saddam out of power. > > Now you claim that this is revisionist history that Republicans saw the situation in Iraq as something more than a chance to wag the dog when your boy is getting impeached. > > Can I ask you to pick a story and stick to it? > > Regards, > Shodan OK, try this: the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Wolfowitz crowd had been drooling over the invasion of Iraq for years, but in places that were mostly below the radar of the public debate: in speeches and journal articles that didn’t find their way into the mass media. But during the eight years that Clinton was in office, how many GOP Congresspersons made the case not only for regime change in Iraq, but for us being the ones to do it? Where was the effort to build public support for this policy? This is the problem: yes, there was such a plan, but until 2002, it might as well have been a secret plan. Sure, there was stuff out there about it, if for some reason you were inclined to search for it. But before Bush started beating the war drum in 2002, who had reason to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/191 "2004-04-06T14:27:30Z")
As a Republican (albeit with extremely liberal social views), I am shocked to see how unrepentant some people are being about this. Is it so hard to admit that you were wrong? Is there something in your heads that refuses to make that kind of concession? This isn’t a sports team you’re rooting for. People’s lives are being crushed here, and all you care about is how right you look on an internet forum. There has to be _some_ point that your president can cross that you think, “you know, enough is enough. I’ve been lied to, manipulated, violated, betrayed, kept in the dark, and generally screwed enough by this person. I need to stand up for myself and point this out before he does it to other people.” There _has_ to be that point. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/192 "2004-04-06T14:38:58Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > As a Republican (albeit with extremely liberal social views), I am shocked to see how unrepentant some people are being about this. Is it so hard to admit that you were wrong? Is there something in your heads that refuses to make that kind of concession? > > This isn’t a sports team you’re rooting for. People’s lives are being crushed here, and all you care about is how right you look on an internet forum. There has to be _some_ point that your president can cross that you think, “you know, enough is enough. I’ve been lied to, manipulated, violated, betrayed, kept in the dark, and generally screwed enough by this person. I need to stand up for myself and point this out before he does it to other people.” There _has_ to be that point. ``` Well Polls seem to indicate Bush is ahead... scandals and flops notwithstanding. ``` So I would say. What have you done to convince other voters that Bush needs to go ? I agree totally with you that its not about rooting for your team/party. Republicans especially should try to talk some sense into other republicans. When Gay Marriage gets more media attentions than 1 dead GI a day it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to notice values are distorted. So stop “whining” and do something about it… I don’t live in the US. You do. Change a few votes and its a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/193 "2004-04-06T14:50:57Z")
…continued… **New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > - I didn’t wax poetical about benefits of democracy, I only asked why such vehemence in denying them to Iraqis, simply because one disagrees with the methods? Surely more balanced attitude is conceivable?\* Wouldn’t dream of “denying democracy” to the Iraqis, me. Simply suspect that, in truth, the Bush administration is not interested in extending democracy to them, at least not on their own terms. As you point out yourself, you wouldn’t allow Iraq to elect a “fundamentalist” leader… so, in essence, _you’re_ the one denying Iraq its democracy, not me. So which is it? After all, you support this entire fucking mess, right? > [@](#): > > - What “attempts at revisionist history”? I’m only asking why so much anger? I understand one can shout how stupid Bush is all day, but we all would benefit from establishment of democratic Iraq. Why say, “Best luck, you gonna need it?”\* Because those of you who have supported this project from the beginning, and continue to support it now, are friggin’ out to lunch. For example, you want to both grant and deny Iraq democracy at the same time. And you have no clue how to get to the end game. You want to suppress the people you supposedly came to liberate. The entire thing is being run as a PR stunt for the Bush administration. People are getting killed over this shit daily, and it sickens me. Is that so hard to understand? The Iraq war isn’t a TV show. It’s really happening. > [@](#): > > - Let’s not loose our heads in terminology. Nobody can give nobody a democracy. What we want is “no trouble”. We want them to give us “no trouble”.\* For this reason, we invade them on trumped up charges, bomb the shit out of them, try to install a puppet (Chalabi), provoke them into rioting, and try to arrest their spiritual leaders. Right. > [@](#): > > - Smoke and mirrors. **Mr. Svinlesha** said a very stupid thing and you know it. If we lived at the time of sanctions and I’d say, “Best luck with clearing all that mess, you gonna need it”, you’d decry my “heartlessness” in a, well, heartbeat. We all stand to benefit from “democratic” Iraq. We can argue about the means and ways, but to throw it at each other saying, “It’s all yours now” is stupid.\* Bullshit. No one is arguing that the pre-war situation was optimal. All I’m saying is that the situation now is _worse_, that we who warned you it would probably be worse were (and are) scorned, and that now that you’ve made your bed, you should lie in it. This war was _your idea_. So solving the resulting situation in Iraq is _your responsibility_. I don’t expect you to wipe my Nixon after I’ve been to the crapper, do I? > [@](#): > > - Where is **Mr. Svinlesha** , anyway? Whisked away to some re-education camp? Don’t be too hard on him, comrades, he might still be useful to you.\* How very droll. Luckily, I have a day pass; I am only required to attend camp every other Thursday. But even us stoopid lefties have to sleep, eat, work. > [@](#): > > _Yes, I’m trying to be funny. You are catching on._ Tra-la-la-la! How funny war can be, sometimes! Great laughs! Now where did I put those “WMDs?” Ho-ho-ho! Did you hear the one about the burnt Americans in Fallujah? Ha ha ha! War, great for a few yuks. Sorry this poor leftie doesn’t get it. Guess I’m just too dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/194 "2004-04-06T15:21:54Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well Polls seem to indicate Bush is ahead… scandals and flops notwithstanding. > > So I would say. What have you done to convince other voters that Bush needs to go ? I agree totally with you that its not about rooting for your team/party. Republicans especially should try to talk some sense into other republicans. When Gay Marriage gets more media attentions than 1 dead GI a day it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to notice values are distorted. So stop “whining” and do something about it… I don’t live in the US. You do. Change a few votes and its a good start. I’m working on it, trust me. 🙂 I just got through convincing my family that gays aren’t the spawn of Satan, and I’m about to go to work on Bush with them. (Un)fortunately, I live in Berkeley, so standing outside chanting about Bush’s evils will just get me some applause, and maybe a dirty look from a rat-like neocon who scurries back into the alleys. What disturbs me is that I’m instantly decried as a “Demoncrat,” Liberal, Communist, terrorist, and/or traitor for daring to question Bush’s policy. That is just sad. This country was founded on questioning our leaders, and the sheep following them blindly are, to me, the true traitors. Said it before, and I’ll say it again; I love the Republic, not the Federal Government. If that makes me a dirty hippie, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/195 "2004-04-06T16:14:16Z")
So this is the one, whose “…tolerance and gentlemanly sufferance presents an excellent example…” is so highly esteemed by **elucidator**. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Those who supported the war not only believed in the lies, subtle, tricky, or transparent – they actively promoted them. This is an outrageous lie of itself. I approved of the invasion and disapproved on most of the rhetoric Bush tried. The way I saw it, the rhetoric was aimed at lefties and foreign crooks, which are impossible to please to begin with, so why bother? Simple, isn’t it? But not for you. You have to _demonize_, to pump the place full of sulfur fumes and start projecting scary shadows, because simple and straightforward arguments you can’t master. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > People like … you have played the role of “enablers.” You’ve chosen to go forth to spread the gospel of lies. At literally every opportunity – although of late the opportunities have been sparse – you’ve chosen the path of willful gullibility. I advocated nothing more or less than a certain practical solution to a certain real problem. Whether I was right or wrong is a matter for an honest debate. But it is impossible to have an honest debate with the likes of you. Because you don’t stand for anything. You only harp and carp. What is your solution to Iraq problem? It’s not the invasion, so much is clear. Is it continuing sanctions? Then why don’t you say so? Then we can compare our cases on demonstrated merits. Or do you advocate something else entirely? In that case you have to formulate it, so I know what you really stand for. However, let’s not get distracted. I criticized you for a stupid and insensitive remark. You answered with billows of hot air. Pray explain, what do you mean by throwing the whole Iraq problem away from yourself, saying, “Best luck, you gonna need it!” to your opponents. If and when the problem is solved, how do you plan to make sure that you will not share in the subsequent benefits of having secure and stable Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/196 "2004-04-06T16:32:04Z")
Far out, **Zag**. Here’s your love beads (had 'em stashed up in the attic). What’s your preference - patchouli or sandalwood? But stay away from the brown acid - bummer, man, bummer. Groovy. See you down on Telegraph, for the be-in. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/197 "2004-04-06T16:33:59Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > However, let’s not get distracted. I criticized you for a stupid and insensitive remark. You answered with billows of hot air. Pray explain, what do you mean by throwing the whole Iraq problem away from yourself, saying, “Best luck, you gonna need it!” to your opponents. If and when the problem is solved, how do you plan to make sure that you will not share in the subsequent benefits of having secure and stable Iraq? **Mr. S.** doesn’t need my help here. But should Iraq devolve into theocracy, civil war, or total chaos, how do you plan to make sure you **do** share in its trials and tribulations? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/198 "2004-04-06T16:35:34Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So this is the one, whose “…tolerance and gentlemanly sufferance presents an excellent example…” is so highly esteemed by **elucidator**. Yeppers. Boy’s a pistol, idn’t he? > [@](#): > > …If and when the problem is solved, how do you plan to make sure that you will not share in the subsequent benefits of having secure and stable Iraq? In much the same way as I boycott hamburgers made from the flesh of Invisible Pink Unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/199 "2004-04-06T16:39:21Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I advocated nothing more or less than a certain practical solution to a certain real problem. … What is your solution to Iraq problem? What exactly was the Iraq “problem?” Weapons?, terrorism? Iraq was a “problem” only by the definition of Rummy, Wolfie, Perle, _et al_ and the sophomoric ninny, GW, provided them the means to do what they had always wanted to do. To get rid of Saddam. I don’t see any justification for the hot air and campaign slogans that you spout daily. For example this bit from your previous post; “This is an outrageous lie of itself. I approved of the invasion and disapproved on most of the rhetoric Bush tried. [Comment: _The rhetoric that you disapporved was the justification for the war. So what other reason did you have for approving of the invasion?_] The way I saw it, the rhetoric was aimed at lefties and foreign crooks, which are impossible to please to begin with, so why bother? Simple, isn’t it? But not for you. You have to demonize, to pump the place full of sulfur fumes and start projecting scary shadows, because simple and straightforward arguments you can’t master.” What straightforward arguments? Let’s hear them. So far your statements seem to come from the course in Soundbites 101. The Iraq invasion was a tragic blunder supported by those who have no valid conception of what war is useful for or what war is all about. War is a last resort to be resorted too only when you are under actual attack or the enemy in full view is actually at the gates. I don’t see how the preemptive war in Iraq fits that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/200 "2004-04-06T16:46:12Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > What straightforward arguments? Let’s hear them. So far your statements seem to come from the course in Soundbites 101. The truth (as opposed to the anti-smoking campaign) is that we invaded Iraq for one reason: We are being kicked out of Saudi Arabia, and we need to maintain our sphere of influence in the region. It has nothing to do with WMD, humanitarian or democratic concerns, or anything else. As Isk pointed out, that is all just rhetoric. The neocons knew that we were being kicked out of Saudi Arabia before they even took office, and had the invasion of Iraq scheduled. 9/11 only changed their schedule and gave them more justification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=11)