# Tens of Thousands March in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262 "2003-12-11T03:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/201 "2004-04-06T16:59:50Z")
**Zagadka** : > [@](#): > > _What disturbs me is that I’m instantly decried as a “Demoncrat,” Liberal, Communist, terrorist, and/or traitor for daring to question Bush’s policy. That is just sad. This country was founded on questioning our leaders, and the sheep following them blindly are, to me, the true traitors._ One of the real propaganda victories of this administration, in my opinion, has been its ability to frame the invasion in terms of : pro-war = Conservative/Republican = patriot = correct vs. anti-war = Liberal/Democrat = traitor (terrorist) = incorrect. **Simon** has been like a voice in the wilderness in these debates, patiently trying to explain to his conservative brethren that criticism of Bush and his policies **does not** map onto the liberal-to-conservative spectrum. (His adherence to truth, rather than party politics, has really won my respect; there are some good conservatives out there!) There are perfectly legitimate grounds for criticizing this administration’s actions even from a conservative perspective. And of course, no one should condone the level of mendacity this administration has displayed, regardless of its ideological orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/202 "2004-04-06T17:10:46Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This is an outrageous lie of itself. I approved of the invasion and disapproved on most of the rhetoric Bush tried. The way I saw it, the rhetoric was aimed at lefties and foreign crooks, which are impossible to please to begin with, so why bother? So while perhaps you didn’t actually _promote_ Bush’s lies, you approved of them because they suited your agenda, plus it was too much bother to try to make an _honest_ case for war. Oh yeah, that puts you on the side of the Angels here! You were better off accepting **Mr. Svinlasha’s** lashing without comment. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/203 "2004-04-06T17:37:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > **Mr. S.** doesn’t need my help here. But should Iraq devolve into theocracy, civil war, or total chaos, how do you plan to make sure you **do** share in its trials and tribulations? No plans. I just will. You too. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/204 "2004-04-06T17:47:27Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > What exactly was the Iraq “problem?” Welcome to our planet. We were patrolling Iraq for 11 years, subjecting the local population to great hardships. Ex-POTUS didn’t call the whole thing off, but escalated gradually. The name is E-A-R-T-H. Hope you enjoy your stay. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/205 "2004-04-06T18:05:58Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > One of the real propaganda victories of this administration, in my opinion, has been its ability to frame the invasion in terms of : > > pro-war = Conservative/Republican = patriot = correct > > vs. > > anti-war = Liberal/Democrat = traitor (terrorist) = incorrect. > > **Simon** has been like a voice in the wilderness in these debates, patiently trying to explain to his conservative brethren that criticism of Bush and his policies **does not** map onto the liberal-to-conservative spectrum. Poor, neglected, oppressed, spit-upon, vilified, misunderstood liberals; all alone in the world! Well, before you all got seriously warm and wet all over pitying yourselves, hear this: **Bush is an Idiot! And a Bufoon! I love Liberals! Liberals are essential for eco-system!** Feeling better? I will repeat, as necessary. Now, can we have some straight answers to certain straight questions? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/206 "2004-04-06T18:11:19Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So while perhaps you didn’t actually _promote_ Bush’s lies, you approved of them because they suited your agenda, plus it was too much bother to try to make an _honest_ case for war. No, I didn’t approve of them at all. In fact I disapproved of them decisively. I was practically screaming, “Mr. Bush! You Idiot! You Bufoon! Don’t go there, A-ole! You don’t get any credit from those frauds, you only make things worse, you bufoon, you idiot!” He just smiled. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/207 "2004-04-06T18:38:05Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > The truth (as opposed to the anti-smoking campaign) is that we invaded Iraq for one reason: We are being kicked out of Saudi Arabia, and we need to maintain our sphere of influence in the region. > > It has nothing to do with WMD, humanitarian or democratic concerns, or anything else. As Isk pointed out, that is all just rhetoric. The neocons knew that we were being kicked out of Saudi Arabia before they even took office, and had the invasion of Iraq scheduled. 9/11 only changed their schedule and gave them more justification. Maybe. However, the rhetoric that was claimed to be only for the “… lefties and foreign crooks …[New Isklander]” was also used to influence the Congress to authorize the war and was attempted at the UN by Saint Colin. I simply don’t accept that the GW cabal is so rational as to have an even maginally justifiable reason for the Iraq blunder. They certainly haven’t demonstrated much along that line in the so-called “war on terror.” > [@New Iskander](#): > > > [@David Simmons](#): > > > > What exactly was the Iraq “problem?” > > Welcome to our planet. We were patrolling Iraq for 11 years, subjecting the local population to great hardships. Ex-POTUS didn’t call the whole thing off, but escalated gradually. > > The name is E-A-R-T-H. Hope you enjoy your stay. The things you listed are, in my opinion, annoyances and do not even come close to a such a “problem” as to pose so imminent a threat to the US as to justify a preemptive war. And, come to think of it, do you really expect me to believe that you give a shit about “subjecting the local population to great hardships?” Your arguments are merely a chain of silly asides that I assume you think are funny. Well, don’t give up your day job. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/208 "2004-04-06T19:02:56Z")
[Returning Now to the Triumphal March of Democracy Through Iraq] [Najaf Falls to Sadrist Forces](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/06/iraq.main/index.html) [/Returning Now to the Triumphal March of Democracy Through Iraq] How come Bush hasn’t said “Bring em on!” this time? Are we so close to total victory that the troops don’t _need_ any more cheerleading? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/209 "2004-04-06T19:04:21Z")
**New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > _So this is the one, whose “…tolerance and gentlemanly sufferance presents an excellent example…” is so highly esteemed by elucidator._ You asked me why I was so harsh. Following that you chose to make light of issues that are deeply serious, and employ deprecating stereotypes of your debating opponents as jokes. I didn’t think it was very funny, and have grown weary of the unholy SHITE promulgated regularly by Bush supporters, especially regarding the war. Even a gentleman has limits. However, I _did_ give you a straight answer. The Bush administration at large, and it’s many supporters here at the SDMB, have been thoroughly high-handed, arrogant, rude, spiteful, snide, and condescending (actually, for the sake of accuracy, **Sam** is one of the few exceptions to that characterization). Time, however, has also proven them to be **completely wrong** in virtually every one of their assertions regarding Iraq (and this accusation, I’m afraid, does include **Sam** ). At this point, when the pre-war claims made by Bush and his cronies have been so entirely discredited, there is simply no defense left for those who continue to support this thoroughly corrupt administration. > [@](#): > > _This is an outrageous lie of itself. I approved of the invasion and disapproved on most of the rhetoric Bush tried. The way I saw it, the rhetoric was aimed at lefties and foreign crooks, which are impossible to please to begin with, so why bother?_ Well, was it _rhetoric_, or was it _truth_? You see, you give the lie to the administration’s claims even here. “Oh, that was only rhetoric, aimed at you dumb lefties,” you say. “_We never really believed Iraq had “WMDs,” or was a serious threat, after all. We just said that stuff to convince you to go to war_.” But I disagree with your analysis. I believe the rhetoric was aimed at the true-blue believers, not us skeptics. And they were the ones who swallowed it, willfully or unwittingly, hook, line, and sinker. Just long enough to start the invasion. Then fuck ‘em. > [@](#): > > - Simple, isn’t it? But not for you. You have to demonize, to pump the place full of sulfur fumes and start projecting scary shadows, because simple and straightforward arguments you can’t master.\* _I_ can’t muster a straightforward argument? Really? Ask **Sam** if he agrees with that statement, why don’t you. Yet, I’m still waiting for a straightforward argument from the pro-war side which can be debated. Was the invasion a response to an imminent threat? To Iraq’s possession of “WMDs” and its connection to al Qaida? _You’ve_ just admitted that these claims were merely rhetoric. Anti-war types argued that Iraq was never a real threat to the US, and that the Bush administration had failed to produce credible evidence of “WMDs”; we were right. Was it to prevent terrorism? Many of us believe that is was a distraction from the hunt for al Qaida and bin Laden, including prominent Republicans like Richard Clarke, one of the world’s leading experts on counter-terrorism. And indeed, since the war, acts of terror by al Qaida and other, linked organizations have increased, precisely as those in the anti-war camp warned. Was it to overthrow Hussein’s regime and establish an Iraqi democracy? If so, why the urgency? Why not work with the UN? Why risk the ire of the world community just to free a foreign people, to whom we owe literally nothing? Are you so naive as to believe that the Bush administration would behave in such an altruistic fashion, without expecting anything in return? Again, said the experts, while a noble cause, it is a risky venture. We asked, “Well, if it goes south, what then?” Pre-war planners warned the administration that this might happen. They were ignored. Now, it’s beginning to go south. Do you have even one bloody foggy suggestion as to what to do about it? Shall we agree upon a symbol for the new Iraqi Olympic Team, stick our fingers in our ears, and sing “God Bless America” at the top of our lungs? Do you think maybe that will make all those nasty Sadrists go away? And now, after I’ve spent the last 2 1/2 years trying to convince my debating opponents not to do this, am I somehow expected to be responsible for the results of a policy I stridently opposed, here and on the street as well? Why? > [@](#): > > - I advocated nothing more or less than a certain practical solution to a certain real problem.\* Yet, not more than a paragraph previously, you concede that your “certain real problem” was just a product of rhetoric, designed to convince “foreign crooks and lefties” (interesting, by the way, how you lump those two categories together). And may I point out, yet again, that your “practical solution” hasn’t proven to be particularly practical? That it’s cost too many lives, and too many valuable resources, and too much US prestige, as is? > [@](#): > > _Whether I was right or wrong is a matter for an honest debate._ Your solution: lie to the American public, ignore the tenets of international law (yeah, I know you don’t believe there is such a thing), ignore and insult some of our most trusted allies, violate the UN Charter, launch an unprovoked war of aggression against a tin-pot dictator on false pretenses, pretend afterwards that it was really a noble humanitarian action, attempt to install a known con-man as a puppet, and, when all hell breaks loose, throw up your hands and request “an honest debate.” A bit late for that, don’t you think? Let me remind you as well, that at least previously, you have admitted that _you don’t even know why he did it, yourself_: > [@](#): > > originally posted by [**New Iskander**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=222157): > > _I’m afraid You are still missing the point, first stated here by **xtisme** and agreed to by few others, that it was “take out Saddam” operation from the get-go. Bush was neither a “liar” or “delusional”, he was pursuing his policy by all means available, and he was using WMD charge, among others, because it seemed to be the most credible and encountered the least opposition. He was using WMD charge because he believed it to be true, otherwise he would use something else. **He was doing all that for very serious reasons, which right now we can only guess (I made few guesses above).**_ (How’s that for a little fuzzy logic? He believed in the accusations that Iraq had “WMDs,” but his real reasons for invading were totally different. Only, we don’t know what those reasons were. Despite that fact, we know they were “very serious.” And you say _I_ can’t muster a straightforward argument?) The time for debate is over, **Is**. Tonight Baghdad’s in flames. Your time is up, your experiment finished. Thank you, thank you all, for supporting this foolish war, and getting us into this mess. For myself, I’ve debated it into the ground. What use arguing with the walls? > [@](#): > > - What is your solution to Iraq problem?\* To be honest, I’m not sure I have one. I also don’t have a solution to the problems in China. Do you think we should invade them next? If not, then what _is_ your solution to the “Chinese problem?” > [@](#): > > _However, let’s not get distracted. I criticized you for a stupid and insensitive remark. You answered with billows of hot air._ No. I explained to you exactly why I made that remark. Go back and reread. > [@](#): > > posted by **David Simmons** : > > _Well, don’t give up your day job._ Word. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/210 "2004-04-06T19:31:06Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > …do you really expect me to believe that you give a shit about “subjecting the local population to great hardships?” Why wouldn’t you? Because I hold a different opinion from yours on certain issues and, therefore, am evil? That’s why? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/211 "2004-04-06T19:38:39Z")
> [@](#): > > What is your solution to Iraq problem? > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > To be honest, I’m not sure I have one. That’s all I wanted to know. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/212 "2004-04-06T19:46:22Z")
What’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/213 "2004-04-06T19:48:21Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That’s all I wanted to know. If that is all you got out of that post, you truly are evil… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/214 "2004-04-06T19:53:38Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Now, time has shown that we were right, and **Shodan** wrong. Does this matter to him? Do we see a public recantation, an admission of error, anywhere? An apology, perhaps, for the hateful tone he had adopted prior to the war, towards those of us who desperately tried to warn him, and people like him, that this was going to be an expensive, dangerous mistake? Even a slight sign of regret, or remorse? Perhaps we on the “left” (nota bene: **Simon X** is a conservative) were not so “short-sighted” or “breathtakingly stupid,” after all? Perhaps friend **Shodan** should take a step back and reevaluate his opinion? > > No. Like an adroit eel, he merely squirms over to the next talking point. Now, he says, the whole thing is about human rights; establishing a democracy in Iraq. Let us pretend like “WMDs” were never important, stop discussing them, ignore them. And while soldiers are fighting and dying in Iraq, he wastes his time, and ours, by trying to score irrelevant debating points against **rjung** : as if, by that act, he can somehow vindicate the entire mess his boy Bush has gotten us into. Myopic, I think, is the word. Frankly, as a “marginalized lefty” (read: mainstream American) who was “almost breath-takingly stupid” (read: brilliantly insightful and ultimately proven correct), I don’t really care if **Shodan** has the balls to admit to his earlier errors and apologize for his previous boneheaded remarks. My ego is certainly not dependent on the approval of a Bush apologist who, at this point, won’t budge his opinion for anything less than a ten-megaton warhead. What _does_ get my goat is that he continues to parrot the daily talking points of the White House and the Republican Party, without the slightest iota of skepticism or doubt. If friend **Shodan** were to intelligently respond to the latest Bush directive with a doubtful “Boy, they’re going to try to fleece the public again!”, I’d gladly overlook his past boorish behavior and self-contradictions, just for the pleasure of seeing him exhibit some form of independent thought. Because, in the end, we’re here to fight ignorance, not perpetuate it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/215 "2004-04-06T20:06:16Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > What’s yours? I support the invasion and occupation. In my first post to you I said twice, “we, those who support the war”. I thought I made it clear. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/216 "2004-04-06T20:08:55Z")
**rjung** : For the record, I fully agree with you; no one would be more pleased than me to see **Shodan** change his stripes and start throwing 'em straight. However, since he continues to follow his present course, I figure his past sins are still fair game. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/217 "2004-04-06T20:16:00Z")
**New Iskander** : No, I’m wondering about your solution to the “_Iraqi problem_,” that is to say, the burgeoning Iraqi civil war that is a result of your invasion. What is your solution to that problem? How about we nuke em? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/218 "2004-04-06T20:36:24Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > No, I’m wondering about your solution to the “_Iraqi problem_,” that is to say, the burgeoning Iraqi civil war that is a result of your invasion. > > What is your solution to that problem? > > How about we nuke em? No nukes. Just carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/219 "2004-04-06T20:51:53Z")
_That’s_ your brilliant solution to the Sadrist uprising? “Just carry on?” Just carry on with what? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/220 "2004-04-06T20:59:15Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Since **Shodan** is having problems comprehending my earlier post, I’ll spell it out in simple terms: > > 1. During Clinton’s terms in office, the **Republican Party** didn’t give two toots about liberating the poor oppressed Iraqi people. They were too busy sniffing around Bill’s closet to care about them. > > 2. During Clinton’s terms in office, a handful of **neo-conservatives at the PNAC** were having wet dreams about invading Iraq and grabbing all that oil. > > 3. The **Republican Party** and the **neo-conservatives at the PNAC** didn’t have intersecting goals until Bush got selected in 2000. > > Keep reading those three sentences until they sink in; I’m sure you can manage it, eventually… So now you are claiming that Cheney and the other signatories to the letter aren’t Republicans? This gets sillier every time you post. Is that what you meant by “revisionist history”? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=12)