# Tens of Thousands March in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262 "2003-12-11T03:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/21 "2003-12-11T14:18:11Z")
I just watched a Tivo’ed ABC World News Tonight from last night, this morning. Guess what? THEY REPORTED THE STORY. And dude, there is no way that screenshot from Fox could be anywhere near 10,000 people. No chance even 5,000. Compare that photo to [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1269682.stm) one. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/22 "2003-12-11T14:56:02Z")
That obscure rag the New York Times has it today, although it’s buried inside [another story](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/11/international/middleeast/11IRAQ.html). ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/23 "2003-12-11T15:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > In Baghdad? Oh, I see, its a snarky rejoinder, devoid of content. Ha! Very droll. No. Right here in the US. After all, isn’t it you liberals who are always complaining about the 3 million jobs lost due to Bush’s evil pro-corporate facist policies? Surely, there are enough thousands upon thousands of men unemployed and just standing around that you could draw a crowd of a couple thousand by banging a drum and playing a kazoo. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/24 "2003-12-11T15:30:02Z")
Oh, and speaking of content. Have you taken a look at your own posts lately? (Including this thread) Pot, kettle, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/25 "2003-12-11T15:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Debaser: > He doesn’t deserve to have words put in his mouth about any conspiracy. > [@](#): > > Sam: > Maybe it’s because it’s a march against Terrorism and in support of reconstruction and the United States When you spend too much time looking at beautiful women, you become desensitized, and may fail to notice the pretty girl _standing right in front of you_! ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/26 "2003-12-11T15:47:29Z")
I took a look at **Sam** ’s screen shots and got a sense of déjà vu - anyone else recognize those columns in the third picture down? It’s the same plaza where “thousands” of jubilant Iraqis cheered the toppling of a statue of Saddam Hussein. Of course, a webcam from a nearby hotel showed it to be a real tiny crowd. Now I’m not saying this event was just as staged as the statue-toppling, but it does look like those cameras only went where the crowd was thickest… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/27 "2003-12-11T15:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **…After all, isn’t it you liberals who are always complaining about the 3 million jobs lost due to Bush’s evil pro-corporate facist policies…** Not this one. I don’t really understand economics, and am inclined to be dubious of any argument made with economics as a foundation. Keynesian stuff does seem to be fairly well documented, but I’m not carving it in stone. Personally, I doubt that any President has the power to tweak the economy. He can wreck it, but can’t really tinker with the carborater. I have oodles and gobs of other reasons to want this pack of jackals out of power, the unemployment rate is pretty far down the list. Nonetheless, I think that being stingy with the unemployed while playing the Goddess of Abundance for the wealthy kinda stinks. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/28 "2003-12-11T16:06:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*In a place with thousands upon thousands of men unemployed and just standing around, you could draw a crowd of a couple thousand by banging a drum and playing a kazoo. \*\* Yes, Europe _is_ lovely this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/29 "2003-12-11T16:18:00Z")
For sure it ain’t much of a crowd! Knorf ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/30 "2003-12-11T16:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Apos’ quotes of Sam != him saying that there is a “liberal media conspiracy”. No, not in such words, but the implication he is making is as bright as day, and its a bit of a joke to argue otherwise. What other questions are there in the OP that don’t ask, almost rhetorically, why the story isn’t being covered? Or does he really want us to debate the question of whether democracy, or having people be for it, is a good thing or not? who was he expecting to take the con-side then? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/31 "2003-12-11T17:32:54Z")
The SJ Merc had a full article about this demostration today. It wasn’t on the front page, but it was a sizable article (about 15 paragraphs) with a photo and the headline was: “Thousands of Iraqis Rally Against Violence”. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/32 "2003-12-11T18:12:33Z")
I wonder how much the motivation was against violence, and how much was in supprot of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/33 "2003-12-11T18:26:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*I wonder how much the motivation was against violence, and how much was in supprot of the US. \*\* Well that photo of the protester carrying an Ayatollah Kohmeni placard didn’t look too pro-US. [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/2003_12_01_juancole_archive.html#107112676547325571) has a bit more on the nature of the protests. > [@](#): > > Ash-Sharq al-Awsat said that 2500 demonstrators came out in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala. But they carried placards calling for the immediate turn-over of authority in Iraq by the Americans to the Iraqis. As usual with demonstrations, various groups used them for their own purposes. It is hard to see how a demand that the US give sovereignty back to the Iraqis right now can be seen as pro-American. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/34 "2003-12-11T18:30:42Z")
Marching against violence does not equal support of the US (that would actually be logically contradictory). So we have a hyperbolic OP with overstated claims, an erroneous premise and specious conclusions. Reminds me of another guy who used to post a lot in GD. Named after this very month, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/35 "2003-12-11T18:31:39Z")
I’ve been wondering what the different signs said. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/36 "2003-12-11T18:34:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > Reminds me of another guy who used to post a lot in GD. Named after this very month, in fact. > \*\* Geeez. To the Pit with _this_ shit. The issues, man, the issues. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/37 "2003-12-11T18:44:38Z")
**Simon** , this is kind of an issue free environment. It seems perfectly clear to me that friend **Sam** is eager to have us accept, as he apparently has, that the demonstration in question was a ringing endorsement of America and its policy in Iraq. He went on to imply that something was amiss if this vast outpouring of Iraqi opinion was overlooked. If you check the links, there are any number of signs translated, and they have rather politically innocuous slogans, as best I can tell. If there were giant posters of GeeDubya, garlanded by boquets carried by hundreds of Iraqi’s chanting “Boy, do we love America! Lots!”, they escaped the photographer’s notice. If there had been, I suspect it would have been brought to our attention. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/38 "2003-12-11T18:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Geeez. To the Pit with _this_ shit. The issues, man, the issues. \*\* WHAT issues? Sam thought the so-called liberal media buried a story about a pro-US rally in Iraq, and he turned out to be dead wrong. Case closed; there ain’t no “issues”. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/39 "2003-12-11T18:56:13Z")
My point, **Simon** was that since the premise of the OP was flawed in multiple ways, that the terms of the debate were loaded in favor of a foregone conclusion. The “issues” do not really exist as such in the way that **Sam** phrased the argument. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/40 "2003-12-11T19:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **…couple or three people, here and there, that are carrying pictures of _mullahs_ or _ayatollahs_. Well, maybe more than two or three.** Mullahs and Ayatollahs were persecuted in Baath Iraq. I asked one ex-Iraqi in 1988 how many ayatollahs are there in Iraq and he said, “None, Saddam killed them all.” Thus people freely walking around with pictures of religious leaders is a sign of progress in Iraq. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=3)