# Tens of Thousands March in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262 "2003-12-11T03:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/161 "2004-04-06T01:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] Generalissimo Franco’s dictatorship (backed by the good ol’ US of A) was termed an “Organic Democracy” and the term is used in Turkey as well. As far as I can gather an “organic democracy” is when the dictator appoints everybody and then everybody agrees with the dictator. This seems to describe pretty well what America is attempting in Iraq, an “organic” democracy. Maybe genetically modified as well.QUOTE] Geez! Every time I go to the supermarket, the _organic_ stuff seems to cost twice as much as the generic kind. Just like the war in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/162 "2004-04-06T02:06:34Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > What plan was that? All I remember is platitudes about using the armed forces to fight wars, not to engage in police work and “nation building” (an apparent critical reference to the NATO efforts in the Balkans)…If there was a plan to do this before the catastrophe of Sept 11, 2001, nobody told me about it. [This plan.](http://cryptome.org/rad.htm) Now **rjung** will have to make up his mind if this is a bad thing because they intended to neutralize Saddam pre-9/11, or a bad thing because they didn’t. Or both, or neither, or something. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/163 "2004-04-06T02:07:52Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Invasion of Kuwait, 11 years of sanctions, present resistance: all this is “trouble”. We don’t want that, see. Saddam didn’t have to invade Kuwait. He could be reasonable. He could be useful, just like Musharaff. He could help us fight alQaida. **Dio** got to this before me, so this may be largely redundant, and I will try not to repeat his points, but I have to say: WTF? Since when does “not helping us” equal “causing enough trouble to be invaded?” What’s next, are we going to invade France? Wait, I didn’t give you any ideas, did I? You’re taking “with us or against us” to a whole new level. You know, India didn’t help us, either. In fact, they’re fighting our close buddy (and thorough democracy and terror-free state) Pakistan. We’d better get them before they get us! Saudi Arabia is backing down - not only are they not helping us, they aren’t even a (fake) democracy! Where’s the outrage? Please. The only countries “helping” us are daddy England (largely unwillingly) and a few third world countries that we bullied, threatened, or paid to sign on the dotted line. I mean, unless El Salvador is really an upstanding member of the international community and a valued partner in the fight against crime. Oh, I mean, aside from the parts where we backed up coups and participated in open rebellion. So everyone else is on the list to get bombed? Wait, just like **Musharaff**? **Musharaff** you say? I thought you **can’t deal with terrorists**? I thought that **violence is the only language they understand**? Oh, I see. The terrorists who work FOR us are good. It is only the ones who work AGAINST us who we need to slaughter. That’s pathetic. Come up with a better reason to invade a sovereign country and overthrow their legitimate (albeit corrupt) government and set up a puppet state. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/164 "2004-04-06T02:13:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t want any trouble from those damn Micronesians either. let’s go bomb the crap out of them. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As far as I can gather an “organic democracy” is when the dictator appoints everybody and then everybody agrees with the dictator. This seems to describe pretty well what America is attempting in Iraq, an “organic” democracy. Maybe genetically modified as well. Shouldn’t you be more careful? Right-wingers are present. As dumb as we are, we know how to read. And then we _act_. So don’t give us any ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/165 "2004-04-06T02:14:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [This plan.](http://cryptome.org/rad.htm) Now **rjung** will have to make up his mind if this is a bad thing because they intended to neutralize Saddam pre-9/11, or a bad thing because they didn’t. > > Or both, or neither, or something. Wait, you are using an objective publication that starts an article with: “A SECRET blueprint for US global domination” , is co-written by Jeb Bush, and that is published a year and a half after the election - to prove that Bush campaigned on a platform to “liberate” Iraq? Come on, you can come up with better than that. Just admit that both sides are trying to mold it into their own forumla. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/166 "2004-04-06T02:17:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Bwaa-ha-ha-ha-ha. Yes, I’m trying to be funny. You are catching on. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/167 "2004-04-06T02:19:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Republicans had a plan to oust Saddam during Clinton’s presidency? Cite? Can you name one prominent Republican who publicly urged an inavsion of Iraq during Clinton’s presidency? Donald Rumsfeld Paul Wolfowitz Richard Perle Robert Kagan William Kristol and many others. See [here](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm) for instance for the PNAC folk. Like a dog eating hot chips the neocons have been drooling over their war for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/168 "2004-04-06T02:20:07Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Shouldn’t you be more careful? Right-wingers are present. As dumb as we are, we know how to read. And then we _act_. So don’t give us any ideas. Well, it seems you _don’t_ know how to read since you attributed the quote mistakenly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/169 "2004-04-06T02:22:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Smoke and mirrors. **Mr. Svinlesha** said a very stupid thing and you know it… He may very well have said something stupid, but not, so far, in my presence. Further, his tolerance and gentlemanly sufferance presents an excellent example, one which I haven’t the slightest intention of emulating, outside of heartily recommending it to you. We have already established the only point I wish to convey to you, that your definition of democracy is only distantly similar to the ordinary meaning of the word. You are, of course, free to maintain your own unique vocabulary, just as your are free to entertain the extravagant notion that democracy can be imposed. If the Iraqi people are not free to choose what we would not have them choose, then they are oppressed by us as surely as if by Saddam himself. That our intentions are more benign and our methods less direct is pretty, and pleasing to the eye, but it is little more than a bright red cherry atop a turd sundae. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/170 "2004-04-06T02:24:59Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > present resistance: all this is “trouble”. I am reminded of the quote > [@](#): > > Cet animal est très mechant, quand on l’attaque il se défend. (La Ménagerie, Theodore P.K.) > > This animal is very wicked, when attacked it will defend itself. Yes, the Iraqis are evil: when attacked they defend themselves. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/171 "2004-04-06T02:32:04Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well, it seems you _don’t_ know how to read since you attributed the quote mistakenly. That’s right, sorry, so it was you who said that, uh… Where were we? Oh, that’s right, sorry, so it was you who said that, uh… Not a bad idea at all. Now, if we just… Look, why don’t you just sell out and help us hash out all the details, what do you say? Huh? Where were we, again?.. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/172 "2004-04-06T02:37:42Z")
> [@Chicago Faucet](#): > > It’s okay Sam. See how defensive they get when they are threatened? Uh… Sam’s actually long gone from this thread, in case you hadn’t noticed… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/173 "2004-04-06T02:39:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He may very well have said something stupid, but not, so far, in my presence. Further, his tolerance and gentlemanly sufferance presents an excellent example, one which I haven’t the slightest intention of emulating, outside of heartily recommending it to you. Yadda, yadda… Where is **Mr. Svinlesha**? What are you doing to him? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/174 "2004-04-06T02:41:35Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Yes, the Iraqis are evil: when attacked they defend themselves. :rolleyes: All right, all right… just say how much you want, OK? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/175 "2004-04-06T03:04:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Google April Glaspie. We sort of did ask. Tommmy-rot and unfettered, utter balderdash. Not by any reasonable stretch of a flight of fancy did we ask. We said that we didn’t have position on the Iraq Kuwait border dispute. We didn’t ask Iraq to annex Kuwait. We didn’t even discuss annexation of the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/176 "2004-04-06T03:37:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Invasion of Kuwait, 11 years of sanctions, present resistance: all this is “trouble”. We don’t want that, see. Saddam didn’t have to invade Kuwait. He could be reasonable. He could be useful, just like Musharaff. He could help us fight alQaida. Don’t forget that Hussein _was_ “useful, just like Musharaff.” and [just like](http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav022604.shtml) [Is](http://www.muslimuzbekistan.com/eng/genocide.html)l[am](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2002/12/mil-021206-3d5ec802.htm) [Ka](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_Karimov)r[imov](http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthropology/publications/Uzbek.htm) of [Uzbe](http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/isafp/2002/msg00199.html)k[istan](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:-DUr67E9eGUJ:www.law.uh.edu/cdrom/USFAC/Hright95/UZBEKI95.PDF+%22Islam+Karimov%22+rights+site:.edu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) who’s also “with us” in the WoT. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/177 "2004-04-06T03:47:48Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Tommmy-rot and unfettered, utter balderdash. > Not by any reasonable stretch of a flight of fancy did we ask. We said that we didn’t have position on the Iraq Kuwait border dispute. We didn’t ask Iraq to annex Kuwait. We didn’t even discuss annexation of the whole country. We led Hussein to believe that we would not respond if Iraq moved against Kuwait. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/178 "2004-04-06T04:09:33Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I thought you **can’t deal with terrorists**? Unless you’re member of the GWB Admin who’s been caught illegally transferring classified national security information to agents of foreign governments, who’s escaped a conflict of interest scandal on a techincality, a conflict of interest scandal that involved trying to broker the sale of the Federal governement’s and the Army’s phone lines to a firm associated with Chinese military intelligence, (hutchison-whampoa), even though the FBI opposed the sale on national security grounds. If your nickname for decades has been the Prince of Darkness. If you are such a member, then raising money for the international terrorist group with a genuine, well-documented, operational relationship Saddam Hussein, that has carried out attacks on Americans, is okay. This is the kind of person the GWB Admin has entrusted with our national security. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > [Terrorists plan D.C. fundraiser](http://www.thehill.com/news/012104/terrorists.aspx) > > **January 21** , 2004 > > House Administration Chairman Robert Ney (R-Ohio) will ask Attorney General John Ashcroft today to investigate a charity event for ties to an Iranian terrorist group backed by Saddam Hussein. > > > > The event, to be held Saturday at the Washington Convention Center, is billed as a “night of solidarity with Iran.” > > > > … a number of sponsoring groups have strong ties to the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), and the fundraiser may violate the prohibition on providing material support for global terrorism. > > > [@](#): > > > > [Pentagon Adviser Who Spoke at Function Thought Money Was for Quake Victims](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58296-2004Jan28?language=printer) > > > > **January 29** , 2004 > > > > Pentagon adviser Richard N. Perle, a strong advocate of war against Iraq, spoke last weekend at a charity event that U.S. officials say may have had ties to an alleged terrorist group seeking to topple the Iranian government and backed by Saddam Hussein. > > FBI agents attended it and, as part of a continuing investigation, the Treasury Department on Monday froze the assets of the event’s prime organizer, the Iranian-American Community of Northern Virginia. > > Perle, in an interview, said he was unaware of any involvement by the terrorist group, known as the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK)… > > “All of the proceeds will go to the Red Cross,” Perle said. Informed that the Red Cross had announced before the event it would refuse any monies because of the event’s “political nature,” Perle said: “I was unaware of that.” > > …some Pentagon officials considered the MEK as a possible vanguard against the Iranian government… How many denials before plausible deniability is no longer plausible? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/179 "2004-04-06T04:12:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We led Hussein to believe that we would not respond if Iraq moved against Kuwait. [Here](http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html)’s the transcript. Where’s the part where we “sort of did ask” Iraq to annex Kuwait? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262/180 "2004-04-06T04:18:34Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > [Here](http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html)’s the transcript. Where’s the part where we “sort of did ask” Iraq to annex Kuwait? Here’s the relevant quote: > [@](#): > > Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States’ opinion on this? > > U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960’s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles) I was being facetious when I said we “sort of asked,” but it definitely seems to me like we didn’t object. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tens-of-thousands-march-in-baghdad/218262.md?page=10)