# Tension between "the voters can't be trusted" and "let's register lots of voters" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081 "2010-11-09T20:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/21 "2010-11-09T22:16:51Z")
Voting should be mandatory. Then it would be a reflection of the populace. How could that be wrong? Why should a few determine policies that affect everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/22 "2010-11-09T22:19:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, if your voter registration efforts are concentrated in inner-city or poverty-stricken areas, I might be able to make some sort of claim that relative sophistication about electorate issues is lower, on average, than in wealthier areas. I don’t know that I’d defend that hypothesis tooth and nail, but it’s worth discussing. Honestly, I think i’d argue against you on that one. But even accepting that for argument, it presumes a sliding scale of ignorance in which more ignorance means a more negative outcome, and really i’d again disagree that ignorance only has one axis in that way. I suppose you could also believe more in drawing a line, in which case if you’re six levels too ignorant then you’re not really much different from someone two levels too ignorant, but that’s making a qualitative argument a bit too quantitative for my liking. > [@](#): > > Only a false dilemma if we accept your claim that the two notions truly don’t run counter to one another. If we accept that “more voters” = “more uninformed voters,” then it’s not. Either way, they don’t _inherently_ run counter to one another. Reading your OP, I was under the impression that you weren’t simply arguing against a specific example of these ideas, rather that you were using examples of those ideas to argue against the point in general. Your actual questions, at least, don’t include the specifics of the new voters in question being more or less ignorant. You could equally point out that some proposed barriers to voting being unfair or biased do not mean that the whole notion is inherently flawed (Oddly enough, I wouldn’t have characterised “believe in some barriers to voting” as being a particularly American-style conservative opinion. Possibly it’s my foreign-ness). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/23 "2010-11-09T22:19:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, its not ilke anybody was stopping ACORN from working gated communities. Statistics did. That is not as rich a vein in which to register voters. They were a success if they registered a lot. They had nothing to gain, especially if they got paid by the registration. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/24 "2010-11-09T22:47:20Z")
My intuition tells me that no political organization in the nation wants more people to vote. They want more of _their_ people to vote, or less of the other’s. I think the liberal contingent is likely taking the offensive, and conservatives the defensive. It’s much easier (I think) to register liberals, as they must be packed in cities and suburbs, and technologically connected. It’s in the best interest for the repubs to adopt the defensive, because they’re at a registration disadvantage. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Voting should be mandatory. Then it would be a reflection of the populace. How could that be wrong? Why should a few determine policies that affect everybody. What’s the difference between not voting and voting for a totally random candidate? Like, we could surely increase turnout if we forced infants/people who live in caves to vote. Ignorant people might make slightly random choices, with a chance that they are bad ones. Is the risk for bad policy worse or better than a system where informed people have more of a say? The risk of bad policy is still totally random, since we don’t know what the ignorant would have preferred if they were informed. Anyway, please don’t compel me to vote. Is the nation really so desperate for my vote for Mickey Mouse that they should fine/imprison me to get it? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/25 "2010-11-09T23:22:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But when conservatives do it, they don’t really contradict their other position, which is that some barriers to voting are acceptable, or even desirable. Is this seriously a conservative position? And are you proud of that position? Did you really post that statement in what is supposed to be yet another liberal hypocrisy thread? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/26 "2010-11-10T02:39:52Z")
I have to take a moment to commend friend Bricker for his investigatory prowess. Finding out stuff. Very impressive. I have given a quick search of a few lefty sites I happen to occasionally peruse. And not one mention of this furious hurricane of debate raging through the left wing. This can only be the result of the iron-clad hierarchical command structure of the left. The word came down from Commissar Soros, and minions of the hive mind erased almost all traces of this storm of controversy. Ruthless discipline and organization being, as you all know, the very essence of modern American leftists. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/27 "2010-11-10T02:48:42Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Is this seriously a conservative position? And are you proud of that position? I’m a libertarian, but I absolutely think some barriers to voting are acceptable, or even desirable. Citizenship, mental capacity, and age, for starters; but I’d have no problem if we instituted a civic literacy test. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/28 "2010-11-10T03:09:01Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not sure that works out. For starters, the worst thing that can be said is that if we can’t trust voters then trying to register more of them is _neutral_; if voters can’t be trusted to make intelligent decisions, then registering lots of people isn’t going to make the situation worse. “Tension” would seem to be the wrong word; perhaps that the two in combination are inexplicable, but tension implies some level of actual running counter to each other to me. > > But really I’m not so certain you can’t have both. You could simply believe in the principle of the idea, with the actual practical results not the point. You might believe that the act of voting, in and of itself requires some level of self-improvement, or that the intent to vote means you pay more attention to such issues. You could believe that ignorance is not simply the purview of one particular party, or that it does not have simply one political axis to it, and so feel that the more people that vote the more of an equal or fair (or biased, if that’s your thing) form of ignorance will be brought about. This strikes me as a false dilemma. Can two problems not be complained about at the same time? If your notion of government is best served when every person’s voice is heard, then is not that notion best served by both a a) committed and b) learned people, not one or the other? While reading the OP, this is exactly what my thoughts were. The only thing I would add is that I think the OP has exagerated the idea that “there has been a recurring theme that the voters are not savvy enough to make intelligent decisions”. People make the decisions that they do. I think the OP and I are in agreement that people should be allowed to make stupid decisions in a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/29 "2010-11-10T03:09:58Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Is this seriously a conservative position? I’ve actually seen Freeptards screaming for property qualifications. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/30 "2010-11-10T03:12:50Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I’m a libertarian, but I absolutely think some barriers to voting are acceptable, or even desirable. Citizenship, mental capacity, and age, for starters; but I’d have no problem if we instituted a civic literacy test. Oh good, is this where citizenship is based on that reinterpretation of the 14th amendment, that excludes people born in Hawaii to a father from Kenya? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/31 "2010-11-10T03:16:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … I think the OP and I are in agreement that people should be allowed to make stupid decisions in a democracy. I haven’t the slightest doubt, but I gather that the subtle slander being offered here is that the left is elitist. Problem with posters, you can’t see their faces to determine whether or not they are smirking. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/32 "2010-11-10T03:21:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve actually seen Freeptards screaming for property qualifications. Usually accompanied by the phrase, “skin in the game.” I’d like to know where that originated. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/33 "2010-11-10T03:24:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I haven’t the slightest doubt, but I gather that the subtle slander being offered here is that the left is elitist. Probably. Thing is, our system of government has a certain amount of elitism built into it. Mama Hamilton didn’t raise no fool! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/34 "2010-11-10T03:38:19Z")
Hate that snotty little bitch, Al Hamilton. Wish it had been Tom Paine who shot him. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/35 "2010-11-10T04:18:25Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Oh good, is this where citizenship is based on that reinterpretation of the 14th amendment, that excludes people born in Hawaii to a father from Kenya? 😕 :dubious: Um, no. Paranoid much? ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/36 "2010-11-10T06:20:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wouldn’t the effort spent registering voters be better spent educating voters? You’re a well educated man in the law, surely you know exactly why this is a bad idea. Who do you trust to educate a voter without the risk of it being biased towards one party? I certainly wouldn’t trust any organization that’s paid for or supported by one of the two major parties. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/37 "2010-11-10T07:27:56Z")
There is some partisan self serving rationalization as Bricker and Sam Stone mention. There’s another issue though. The tension comes from years of brainwashing and propaganda aimed at middle to upper class liberals (the kind of people who do these vote registering drives) about every citizen’s duty to vote. It’s the civic religion of obligations and responsibilities to the state, no less pernicious than any other religion. The programming is strong and difficult to break, even while contrary evidence assaults them from all sides. You can see it in this thread, too. The idea that too many uniformed voters might represent a danger to the system, somehow. The two received, pre-approved candidates who agree on many issues – one of them may cause a castrophe! There are large amounts of informed people voting for the catastrophic candidate, but they know what they’re doing so it’s OK. But those uninformed voters, watch out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/38 "2010-11-10T10:36:24Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Is this seriously a conservative position? And are you proud of that position? Sure. Voter IDs, for example, are a barrier to voting, but their vakue outweighs the deleterious effects of the barrier they raise. > [@](#): > > Did you really post that statement in what is supposed to be yet another liberal hypocrisy thread? The only thing that provides any relief from the constant pain in the neck over the misuse of the word “hypocrisy” is the apparent willingness to misuse it directed at the left. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/39 "2010-11-10T10:48:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have to take a moment to commend friend Bricker for his investigatory prowess. Finding out stuff. Very impressive. I have given a quick search of a few lefty sites I happen to occasionally peruse. And not one mention of this furious hurricane of debate raging through the left wing. I said: “…from vocal SDMB participants…” An example thread with the sentiment: [Fuck You, Voters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584137) Example posts with the sentiment: > [@Unseating Judges who Legalized SSM in Iowa](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unseating-judges-who-legalized-ssm-in-iowa/558894/6): > > Wait, what? You think because the voters didn’t throw ALL the judges out that they’re not “the neanderthals that they have been portrayed as?” > [@Unseating Judges who Legalized SSM in Iowa](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unseating-judges-who-legalized-ssm-in-iowa/558894/18): > > In truth, we in the U.S. today are a nation dominated by a majority of highly gullible dupes who will believe just about _anything_ as long as it’s hateful, bigoted, or false, and, as the 2010 mid-terms demonstrated, those who most fervently believe those lies are the most enthusiastic voters. > [@Unseating Judges who Legalized SSM in Iowa](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unseating-judges-who-legalized-ssm-in-iowa/558894/25): > > Yes, the voters were motovated solely by bigotry. Let’s not sugarcoat it. It is what it is. It’s a great example of why the judiciary should not be subject to elections. Mobs don’t make good judges. I’ll post more samples if you wish, but you can hardly be blind to the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/40 "2010-11-10T12:05:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The only thing that provides any relief from the constant pain in the neck over the misuse of the word “hypocrisy”… Mission accomplished! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081.md?page=3)