# Tension between "the voters can't be trusted" and "let's register lots of voters" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081 "2010-11-09T20:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/61 "2010-11-10T16:17:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I don’t know that. Neither does [Bruce Marks of Pennsylvania.](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E5DE153BF93AA25751C0A962958260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink) Aren’t we usually told (by the right) that if something gets caught by the system, it is a sign it **isn’t** a problem? Like those people released from death row because they were innocent is a sign that we don’t execute innocent people, because the appelate system works in getting them out. So your link is demonstration that all is well and good in the voting world. What you need to provide us, of course, is evidence of voter fraud that hasn’t been dealt with through the system. Oh, and you have to demonstrate it changed the course of the election. Evidence of fraud itself isn’t enough. Lets call it an AEDPA for electoral fraud. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/62 "2010-11-10T16:21:41Z")
I believe that every adult citizen of the US should be registered and encouraged to vote. Even the idiots. I can’t still call some of 'em idiots. There’s no tension there. I don’t have to like someone to want them to vote. I don’t have to respect the choices people make to want them to have and exercise their rights. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/63 "2010-11-10T16:22:23Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Luci, I’ve missed you. > This isn’t about Acorn, it is about using federal funds to promote the voting of a particular subset of people (who just so happen to vote the way you want them to) Why shouldn’t that particular subset be registered to vote? Are you saying that federal funds should never be used for voter registration? I asked you to describe what ACORN was doing because it’s obvious you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/64 "2010-11-10T16:32:15Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Why shouldn’t that particular subset be registered to vote? > > Are you saying that federal funds should never be used for voter registration? > > I asked you to describe what ACORN was doing because it’s obvious you don’t know. If you haven’t gotten the gist of what I’ve said in the many times I’ve responded, I can’t help you. Acorn + Fed Funds = not right Acorn - Fed Funds = A OK! If the federal funding can’t be impartial, then no they shouldn’t be used for voter registration. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/65 "2010-11-10T16:44:01Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If the federal funding can’t be impartial, then no they shouldn’t be used for voter registration. It’s an interesting point, but I’m not sure it works. Imagine a situation in which 100% of the unregistered voters are Democrats. Is it then automatically incorrect for federal funding to be used to register any of them? What type of balance test is required (1 registered Dem for every registered Pub)? Or is it adequate to also allow for federal funding for groups that focus on Church members (as an example)? The only way to ensure fairness (as you put it) would be to disallow federal funding for any voter registration efforts at all. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/66 "2010-11-10T16:50:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or if our notion of government is best served when every person’s voice is heard at the ballot box (a notion I prefer) then why would anyone complain about the voters’ collective lack of critical thinking skills? Wouldn’t the effort spent registering voters be better spent educating voters? **Bricker** , your own “critical thinking skills” are far too good to play the argue-the-strawman game, but that’s how I see your post. And, BTW, how should we go about “educating voters”? One set of billionaires is buying the elections, while Murdoch educates with FoxNews single-handledly; doesn’t that tickle your fancy enough yet? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The obvious answer is that Democrats push hard to register disadvantaged voters because they know that those people will vote Democrat. That’s the ONLY reason. If you’re looking for consistency, you won’t find it. > > For example, the same people who work hard to get apathetic voters to vote, even by busing them in or bribing them if necessary, will also work to keep military voters from having their ballots counted. The only way you can find any consistency in those two attitudes is if you look at partisan motivation - both actions help Democrats get elected. There is no other reason. While there’s more than a grain of truth in your too-obvious-for-words examples, it is amusing that you pretend only Demos are partisan. Or is this the advocate system, and you expect the “opposite side” to post its own useless messages with counterexamples? I’m afraid I’ll just resort to presenting facts. I got the following by just Googling “vote breakdown by education level”, clicking on first result and then [clicking again](http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html) to see 2004 exit poll results > [@](#): > > Bush Kerry Nader > No High School (4%) 49% 50% 0% > H.S. Graduate (22%) 52% 47% 0% > Some College (32%) 54% 46% 0% > College Graduate (26%) 52% 46% 1% > Postgrad Study (16%) 44% 55% 1% Do let us not quibble about education level being a proxy for “critical thinking”; one makes do with the data one has and the exit pollers forgot to ask “Are you a critical thinker?” 😃 What I see is “No High School” (likeliest group wanting welfare handout?) as a 49-50 wash. Bush beat Kerry at all the middle education levels, but the strongest lead in the charts was Kerry’s 55-44 advantage among Postgrads. Inconclusive? Maybe. But no support for the stupidest right-wing perspective on the question “How do critical thinkers vote?”. IIRC, by far the biggest correlation in 2000 was church-going. Bush would have won by a landslide if only weekly churchgoers voted; Gore in a landslide if that group were excluded. Whether regular churchgoers are “critical thinkers” can be left for another thread (in another forum?) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/67 "2010-11-10T16:55:34Z")
How many Catholics does it take to reach critical Mass? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/68 "2010-11-10T16:56:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many Catholics does it take to reach critical Mass? Three . . . but they’re really only One. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/69 "2010-11-10T16:58:57Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If you haven’t gotten the gist of what I’ve said in the many times I’ve responded, I can’t help you. > > Acorn + Fed Funds = not right > Acorn - Fed Funds = A OK! > > If the federal funding can’t be impartial, then no they shouldn’t be used for voter registration. Oh, I’m well aware of your gist, I’d just like you to actually have to say it. What is it that you think ACORN was doing? Did they ask people if they were democrats before allowing them to fill out a registration form? Did they have some sort of a test? Secret hand shake? Did they refuse to submit registration forms they thought might vote republican (ie Mickie Mouse)? If people in NYC tend to vote liberal, does that mean federal funds can’t be used there for registration? What about university students? Maybe you could tell us how ACORN was being impartial when registering voters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/70 "2010-11-10T16:59:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many Catholics does it take to reach critical Mass? I think just one priest and one alter boy is all that is needed. For the priest, that is. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/71 "2010-11-10T17:06:33Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Imagine a situation in which 100% of the unregistered voters are Democrats. Is it then automatically incorrect for federal funding to be used to register any of them? First, if they haven’t voted how can they be considered Republican or Democrat? Second, even after voting, there is no way to actually know. What’s sort of funny looking at the past three years, we could claim that Democrats made a push to register low income urban voters, who helped Obama win. Two years later, those same voters (now registered) helped the Republicans win. Net result was a wash, ergo, the registration drive was impartial. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/72 "2010-11-10T17:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I think just one priest and one alter boy is all that is needed. For the priest, that is. I’ve reserved some fairly choice spots in Hell, given the near certainty of my prospects. Shall I put your name down, as well? Its on a slag hill with a nice view of Nixon roasting on a spit. (I have an “in” with Satan, used to be my father-in-law…) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/73 "2010-11-10T17:13:05Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Aren’t we usually told (by the right) that if something gets caught by the system, it is a sign it **isn’t** a problem? Like those people released from death row because they were innocent is a sign that we don’t execute innocent people, because the appelate system works in getting them out. Certainly that’s not a view I adopt, which is one reason I strongly oppose the death penalty. > [@](#): > > So your link is demonstration that all is well and good in the voting world. What you need to provide us, of course, is evidence of voter fraud that hasn’t been dealt with through the system. This seems a high bar to require, since any proof I could adduce for a given accusation would be proof sufficient for the system to act. > [@](#): > > Oh, and you have to demonstrate it changed the course of the election. Evidence of fraud itself isn’t enough. Lets call it an AEDPA for electoral fraud. 😉 As pointed out, I don’t favor the death penalty, and was a PD, so you can imagine how much I favor the AEDPA and its … er… conclusory methodology. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/74 "2010-11-10T17:14:31Z")
I think voting should be mandatory, for the simple reason that it makes it less likely that the extremist elements (on either side), will sway elections just because they’re more motivated to vote. As far as “voters can’t be trusted” I’d also say that dictators can’t be trusted either. Human beings in general can’t be trusted. Democracy is simply the lesser of evils. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/75 "2010-11-10T17:23:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. Voter IDs, for example, are a barrier to voting, but their vakue outweighs the deleterious effects of the barrier they raise. Bricker, I think due to your privileged socioeconomic status you have a difficult time understanding the point of view of someone with less resources than you. There are some people who don’t have a car and thus the amount of effort they have to expend to get an ID are much higher than it is for someone like you. Sometimes people can’t even afford the $50 for an ID. Is it your position that poor people are less deserving of the franchise? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/76 "2010-11-10T17:24:59Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I think voting should be mandatory, for the simple reason that it makes it less likely that the extremist elements (on either side), will sway elections just because they’re more motivated to vote. > > As far as “voters can’t be trusted” I’d also say that dictators can’t be trusted either. Human beings in general can’t be trusted. Democracy is simply the lesser of evils. Well said. Again, looking back and the past few elections: Kerry lost to Bush because he was a giant tool, but also because of the motivation to vote against gay marriage. There was a push to get religiously conservative voters to the ballot boxes, it just sort of happened that they were already registered. This was a group that had been previously unmotivated. They didn’t care enough to vote one way or another. In 2008, there was a push to get low income urban voters to the ballot boxes, the result was that they tended to vote for Obama. The difference in this case was that because they didn’t care about previous elections, they weren’t registered. Now that the Democrats got them registered, the Republicans can get to work convincing them their taxes are going to suddenly be increased. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/77 "2010-11-10T17:26:43Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > It’s an interesting point, but I’m not sure it works. > > Imagine a situation in which 100% of the unregistered voters are Democrats. Is it then automatically incorrect for federal funding to be used to register any of them? > > **If this is known, then yes** > > What type of balance test is required (1 registered Dem for every registered Pub)? Or is it adequate to also allow for federal funding for groups that focus on Church members (as an example)? > > \*\* Why spend money on registering people who can’t be arsed to register themselves?\*\* > The only way to ensure fairness (as you put it) would be to disallow federal funding for any voter registration efforts at all. **Which would be A-OK with me** ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/78 "2010-11-10T17:29:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I think voting should be mandatory, for the simple reason that it makes it less likely that the extremist elements (on either side), will sway elections just because they’re more motivated to vote. > > As far as “voters can’t be trusted” I’d also say that dictators can’t be trusted either. Human beings in general can’t be trusted. Democracy is simply the lesser of evils. For all intents and purposes, this would work as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/79 "2010-11-10T17:53:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am not sure voting your self-interest is necessarily a bad thing as long as you understand that your self interest includes a stable society which might mean you give up a little to get that. > > Unfortunately if the Tea Partiers had a clue they would see their self interest is NOT served by the republican party. The republican party sells fear and the conservative mind eats it up. > > - They want Death Panels for Grandma! > - There is a Muslim in the White House! > - Homos want to corrupt your sons and daughters! > - They want to take your guns! > - Immigrants are taking your jobs and ruining America! > - Democrats want to take all your money and give it to lazy people! > - Democrats are weak on terrorism! > > …and so it goes. > > There is the ignorant part but it works. Those who vote for their self interest would leave the conservatives with _maybe_ the 10% wealthiest people in the country. The other 90% should send them packing if they had half a clue. You are ignoring the racists. That would bump it up way past 10%. BTW, I think you need to replace your top 10% number with perhaps a top 1% figure. The top 10% is largely well educated urban professionals who tend to vote Democrat. There has been an income paradox in politics for a long time. racism explains some of it but not all of it. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081/80 "2010-11-10T17:56:26Z")
So are we all clear now that there isn’t tension between wanting more voters registered, but also being annoyed that voters are stupid? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tension-between-the-voters-cant-be-trusted-and-lets-register-lots-of-voters/560081.md?page=5)