# Terri Schiavo + 5 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872 "2010-03-26T14:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/221 "2010-04-05T01:24:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What the hell does the ACLU have to do with all of this? šŸ˜• The ACLU joined as co-counsel for the petitioner (Michael Schiavo) once Republican legislators started sticking their noses into the case. How the ACLU might have managed to alter witness testimony is, of course, beyond me. [QUOTE=Aji del Gallina] I agree that if you make the decision while healthy your being brain dead doesnā€™t change it. However, since there is no document itā€™s a second hand story what we got. True of false, we know what the husband told us. [/QUOTE] See following post. We know what her husband and 18 other witnesses told us. The judge, [George Greer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Greer), is a devout Christian\* and a lifelong Republican, so itā€™s not as though he was predisposed to agree with right-to-death arguments. \*and a Southern Baptist, to boot - he was essentially thrown out of his church (ā€œasked to leave the congregationā€) after he issued his final ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/222 "2010-04-05T02:43:07Z")
I can understand and appreciate being predisposed toward life. I want that in any judge I am hauled in front of. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/223 "2010-04-05T02:48:07Z")
Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/224 "2010-04-05T03:05:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > See following post. We know what her husband and 18 other witnesses told us. The judge, [George Greer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Greer), is a devout Christian\* and a lifelong Republican, so itā€™s not as though he was predisposed to agree with right-to-death arguments. > > \*and a Southern Baptist, to boot - he was essentially thrown out of his church (ā€œasked to leave the congregationā€) after he issued his final ruling. I stand corrected for my phrase ā€œwe only know what the husband saidā€. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/225 "2010-04-05T03:46:20Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Spot on prediction, SteveG1. Yup. Somebody get him a donut. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/226 "2010-04-05T08:09:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Doctors are fallible, and they donā€™t always know what they are talking about. Oh, and I suppose youā€™re not? The thing you need to understand is that even though doctors are fallible, some mistakes are harder to make than others. Just because a borderline case might go either way does not mean that even _you_ would acknowledge that at some point, thereā€™s so much damage that no recovery is possible. Humans donā€™t have a mutant healing factor, and the destruction of a significant portion of the brain is going to really fuck up your day. > [@](#): > > I will always believe Terri got the bumā€™s rush because her husband wanted to get rid of her. Even assuming for a moment that your view of reality was accurate, couldnā€™t he have simply been trying to free her soul from being anchored to the living corpse that was her body? Even if her soul was undamaged, her body was irrepairably broken, such that she would _never_ be able to interface with it ever again. Saving her from this fate would be no more evil than cutting someone out of a wrecked car with the jaws of life. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/227 "2010-04-05T08:27:49Z")
> [@](#): > > How direct does it have to be? Shooting or poisoning) are both direct. But, again, what about a simple cessation of life support, meaning you stop all ā€œheroicā€ measures? If a person is brain dead, or in a persistent profound vegetative state with no hope of recovery, ever, shouldnā€™t that be a strong indicator that there is no point in conituing treatment? YES! AMEN! There are a lot of cases like those, where itā€™s blatent and obvious that the person is DEAD and not of much use, and will never ever recover. > [@](#): > > think one of the most significant findings of the autopsy that, AFAIK, isnā€™t widely known, is that the most severe and profound damage was to the occipital lobe of her brain. That lobe controls vision, so the autopsy proved the she was blind. > > This proves that her parents and their supporters were entirely deluded when it came to the videos of Terri that supposedly showed her responding to visual stimuli (looking at people, following the movement of a balloon). The autopsy proved that she was blind, so itā€™s impossible that her parents were correct about her vision. If her parents were wrong there, itā€™s very likely her parents were wrong in their other opinions about her other abilities and chance of recovery. Wanerea, GOOD POINT! While cortexual vision can flutuate a lot, if the profoundest damage happened to her vision, thereā€™s no chance that she would be able to even SEE! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/228 "2010-04-05T12:04:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Interesting, and what do you suppose that part that makes her, her would be. Could that part be her mind, or soul. Most posting on this board think we humans are just bio-mechanical machines. But this is not true, there is always that part that makes us us to deal with, and it is not the brain. This is a topic for another thread. Please drop this hijack. > [@](#): > > I donā€™t think it helps to keep rehashing this issue Then feel free to stop arguing from ignorance. How about this: you can either read the judgeā€™s order in post #213 (posted by **Really Not All That Bright** ) and comment on that, or you can stop posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/229 "2010-04-05T12:32:04Z")
I havenā€™t changed my mind; that is, I still believe that Michael Schiavo was the person who had to make the decision. I also think I would have made the same decision he did, but those are two separate issues. During their last conversation, one of the last things my father (1) told my mother was ā€œMaite, I _am_ dying, whether you want it or not. You have to let me die.ā€ 1: daily-Mass Catholic and very much a pro-lifer, but he also believed in freedom and in the notions that true discipline is internal and that you can not impose your beliefs on others. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/230 "2010-04-05T12:53:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is a topic for another thread. Please drop this hijack. > Then feel free to stop arguing from ignorance. How about this: you can either read the judgeā€™s order in post #213 (posted by **Really Not All That Bright** ) and comment on that, or you can stop posting in this thread. I think I will just stop posting a different opinion on this thread, seems opposing views are not tolerated on this board. I remember the Judge getting kicked out of his church for that order, and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/231 "2010-04-05T13:25:10Z")
To paraphrase Richard Feynman, you can have a different opinion. You canā€™t have your own facts. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/232 "2010-04-05T13:29:15Z")
I might regret this, but itā€™s five years on and lekattā€™s pulling the same stunt he did then. So, here goes. lekatt: On what actual evidence do you base your accusations against Mr. Schiavo? Try not to post what you wish to believe is fact as though it is fact. State your evidence consisely, clearly, and with links to a reputable source. And, no, your website is not a reputable source. If you cannot manage to do that, then you should just admit youā€™ve a hard-on against the man for the sheer fun of it and just enjoy trashing the manā€™s character. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/233 "2010-04-05T13:31:32Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > To paraphrase Richard Feynman, you can have a different opinion. You canā€™t have your own facts. All you know is what you heard in the media, same as me, I just came to a different conclusion. There were no facts, only hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/234 "2010-04-05T13:32:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I think I will just stop posting a different opinion on this thread, seems opposing views are not tolerated on this board. I remember the Judge getting kicked out of his church for that order, and rightly so. Rightly so? How was that right? That congregation was not qualified to make the judgment. They, like you, ignored facts and then condemned someone without actual evidence. I think whatā€™s right is that the judge voluntarily left that group of hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/235 "2010-04-05T14:04:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > All you know is what you heard in the media, same as me, I just came to a different conclusion. There were no facts, only hearsay. This statement is not accurate. We have the published results of the court documents and the final autopsy that include factsā€“facts that you choose to ignore. Claiming that everything is ā€œhearsayā€ is simply an admission on your part that you would prefer to ignore the facts when they do not coincide with your wishes. You spend a lot of time posting about ā€œloveā€ in this forum, but you seem quite willing to post hateful accusations against other persons whom you do not even know and whom you have only heard about through hearsay. That sort of ā€œloveā€ looks much more like your own hubris than a genuine desire to extend love to your fellow humans. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/236 "2010-04-05T14:19:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > All you know is what you heard in the media, same as me, I just came to a different conclusion. There were no facts, only hearsay. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread already you can access the whole public record yourself. All the testimony, all the medical records given to the court and so on. IIRC Terriā€™s case was before the court on something like 15 different occassions. Hardly what anyone would call getting railroaded. Additionally Terriā€™s autopsy is public record. The autopsy which conclusively confirmed Terriā€™s profound brain damage. To answer another point you brought up earlier some people do live with half a brain and get on pretty well. There are important distinctions though. IIRC all successful hemispherectomies have been performed on children. Their still evolving brains seem able to adjust and rewire itself sufficiently for a normal life. Around age 18 our brains stop growing and the wiring you have is more-or-less permanent. Losing half your brain at that point will have a substantial negative impact. Further, Terri had profound damage to both hemispheres. There was no other part of the brain able to take over. Important structures were now absent. A person with a hemispherectomy does not have that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/237 "2010-04-05T15:12:30Z")
Off to the Pit, lekatt: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12304549#post12304549](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12304549#post12304549) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/238 "2010-04-05T15:34:50Z")
I see I didnā€™t do the ā€œMod Hatā€ thing earlier, but I wanted to confirm that Iā€™m completely serious here: **lekatt** , donā€™t post again in this thread unless you read the cite in post #213. Itā€™s not necessary to say ā€œI think I will just stop posting a different opinion on this threadā€ again. Either read the cite and comment on it or post about something else in another thread. Iā€™d discourage other posters from addressing **lekatt** ā€™s comments unless he wants to prove heā€™s serious about this topic. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/239 "2010-04-05T15:54:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I see I didnā€™t do the ā€œMod Hatā€ thing earlier, but I wanted to confirm that Iā€™m completely serious here: **lekatt** , donā€™t post again in this thread unless you read the cite in post #213. Itā€™s not necessary to say ā€œI think I will just stop posting a different opinion on this threadā€ again. Either read the cite and comment on it or post about something else in another thread. Iā€™d discourage other posters from addressing **lekatt** ā€™s comments unless he wants to prove heā€™s serious about this topic. I read it a long time ago and it just backs up what I have said about the case. Didnā€™t see anything new. The fact the doctor rules in favor of Michael doesnā€™t mean much. Michael wants to marry his mistress and keep the money also. Well he probably didnā€™t have much money left after the law fees. I used to set law briefs when I was young. Just because itā€™s written down donā€™t mean it is a fact. No one has the right to starve anyone to death. OK, I will quit, no opposition opinion ever sees the light of day here anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/240 "2010-04-05T16:18:29Z")
Must have read it a l-o-o-ng time ago, if your memory has the cite as referring to a doctorā€™s ruling, rather than a judgeā€™s. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=13)