# Terri Schiavo + 5 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872 "2010-03-26T14:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/261 "2010-04-06T22:20:10Z")
Actually, if we’re talking of the Catholic Church’s views on the matter, the Church recognizes seven [corporal acts of mercy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_of_Mercy#Corporal_works_of_mercy), the last of which is to bury the dead. Terri was dead, so it was moral, just, and appropriate to bury her. Her parents were fighting for the legal right to desecrate her corpse. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/262 "2010-04-06T23:38:37Z")
“Starving” to death only applies when the person wastes away from lack of food and, more so, when they know it. Terri could not possibly have known that she was hungry or thirsty since those urges and sensations were long gone. My friend’s mother quit eating and then became unable to swallow anything during her last week or two in hospice. She had left wishes for no feeding tube. She slipped away within a few days and was asleep much of the time. When a person is dying, the body knows it and starts shutting down. They no longer feel hunger or thirst. The body knows when it no longer needs sustenance, which won’t do any good anyway. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/263 "2010-04-07T00:08:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So now let he that wants to play God step forward. No problem. Once I have unlimited power, then–and only then–I can “play God”. Until such time as that, your phrase has no meaning. > [@](#): > > I think the act of starving someone to dead would be classified a cruel and unusual punishment. Punishment? I do not think that word, etc, etc. More cruel would be keeping her heart pointlessly beating. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/264 "2010-04-07T02:38:47Z")
JFTR, [here](http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100404_17_A19_Astatu489297) is the story in **lekatt** ’s local paper, the Tulsa (OK) _World_. Also included are reader comments. Although the officials appear to be implying that there is nothing new about this policy, no mention is made in the story about why the subject is coming up at this time (maybe the five-year anniversary of the Shiavo case is what brought the matter back into the local public consciousness. We Americans can be kinda weird that way). It does appear to be related to a November release of a directive from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/265 "2010-04-07T03:11:10Z")
For the record, she didn’t starve to death. She died of dehydration. Big difference - the latter is far more pleasant than the former. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/266 "2010-04-07T04:12:03Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > When a person is dying, the body knows it and starts shutting down. They no longer feel hunger or thirst. The body knows when it no longer needs sustenance, which won’t do any good anyway. Let’s not get carried away. _Terri_ didn’t feel hunger or thirst, because she no longer had anything that _could_ feel hunger or thirst. But that’s an exception. It would be nice if dying people did so painlessly, but your brain/body do not normally have any need to make it easy on you. People all the time die in great pain. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/267 "2010-04-07T06:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Further, Terri had profound damage to both hemispheres. There was no other part of the brain able to take over. Important structures were now absent. A person with a hemispherectomy does not have that issue. Yes. And it was profound no matter which way you look at it. Lekatt, you’re getting mixed up between severe and profound. Someone can have severe issues but still be somewhat functional or have some skills. Actually I think it would be better to say that she had extreme profound damage. She was basicly like a baby with anacephely. You don’t see any of the even hardcore pro lifers trying to save the lives of a baby born with anacephely. It’s the same sitution. And it isn’t a slippary slope. Most people with disabilites can have rich full lives and adapt to their disabilites. But there are people on the profound end of the scale who are so extremely affected they have NO life at all! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/268 "2010-04-07T08:33:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Now before posters tell me she couldn’t feel anything, let me point out that not being in her body they wouldn’t have a clue about this. Imagine for a moment that someone got his arm bitten off by a shark - let’s call him Bob. Bob’s arm is completely removed from his body, with no hope of reattaching it. Would you feel comfortable saying that anything bad that happens to this arm will not hurt Bob? Even though you’re not in Bob’s body, would you acknowledge that completely severing the link between Bob’s brain (or his soul) and Bob’s arm means he can no longer feel anything that happens to it? _That_ is our argument for why she couldn’t feel anything: the destruction of her brain either destroyed her, or severed her link to her body. Either way, the effect is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/269 "2010-04-07T11:01:05Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > You don’t see any of the even hardcore pro lifers trying to save the lives of a baby born with anacephely. Baby K. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/270 "2010-04-07T13:21:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Imagine for a moment that someone got his arm bitten off by a shark - let’s call him Bob. Bob’s arm is completely removed from his body, with no hope of reattaching it. Would you feel comfortable saying that anything bad that happens to this arm will not hurt Bob? Even though you’re not in Bob’s body, would you acknowledge that completely severing the link between Bob’s brain (or his soul) and Bob’s arm means he can no longer feel anything that happens to it? > > _That_ is our argument for why she couldn’t feel anything: the destruction of her brain either destroyed her, or severed her link to her body. Either way, the effect is the same. Your argument fails to acknowledge that the brain is not the soul, nor the mind, nor the spirit, nor the consciousness of a human being. People have come back to life after being put in the morgue and a dead certificate issued. This is an area of knowledge not well understood by science if at all. We have some solid research now that shows the consciousness continues to live after the death of the brain and body. I can’t tell you how consciousness and brain interact and neither can anyone else. Science assumes it knows things it doesn’t even have a clue about all the time. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/271 "2010-04-07T13:27:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Your argument fails to acknowledge that the brain is not the soul, nor the mind, nor the spirit, nor the consciousness of a human being. Cite for soul and spirit? I think that **Grumman** took care of the mind and consciousness parts. > [@](#): > > We have some solid research now that shows the consciousness continues to live after the death of the brain and body. Cite for solid research? > [@](#): > > Science assumes it knows things it doesn’t even have a clue about all the time. Cite for no clue science in light of the Scientific Method? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/272 "2010-04-07T13:35:33Z")
Cite? Baby Jaysus and the whole Easter thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/273 "2010-04-07T13:40:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Your argument fails to acknowledge that the brain is not the soul, nor the mind, nor the spirit, nor the consciousness of a human being. People have come back to life after being put in the morgue and a dead certificate issued. > [@SoulFrost](#): > > Cite for soul and spirit? I think that **Grumman** took care of the mind and consciousness parts. > [@Muffin](#): > > Cite? Baby Jaysus and the whole Easter thing. No, no, and no. We’re not having another thread where **lekatt** hijacks the conversation by ignoring all the facts and arguing from ignorance. Start a new thread if you want to have a discussion about spirits, **lekatt**. Any further tangential remarks will lead to a warning, and I remind everybody else to take their replies to **lekatt** to a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/274 "2010-04-07T13:49:20Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Must have read it a l-o-o-ng time ago, if your memory has the cite as referring to a doctor’s ruling, rather than a judge’s. :rolleyes: Nah, he could have read it half a second ago – his “anti-facts-I-don’t-like” filter is just that fast. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/275 "2010-04-07T13:53:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So now let he that wants to play God step forward. Nah – George Burns’ shoes are a bit large for me to fill. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Catholic Church doesn’t have any legal ability to make this call. They can make policy for how they will run things in their own institutions. Of course, a patient (or the patient’s legal guardian in cases of incapacitation) can go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/276 "2010-04-07T14:06:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, no, and no. We’re not having another thread where **lekatt** hijacks the conversation by ignoring all the facts and arguing from ignorance. Start a new thread if you want to have a discussion about spirits, **lekatt**. Any further tangential remarks will lead to a warning, and I remind everybody else to take their replies to **lekatt** to a different thread. New thread is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12312746#post12312746). ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/277 "2010-04-07T14:15:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Let’s not get carried away. _Terri_ didn’t feel hunger or thirst, because she no longer had anything that _could_ feel hunger or thirst. > > But that’s an exception. It would be nice if dying people did so painlessly, but your brain/body do not normally have any need to make it easy on you. People all the time die in great pain. True, I overgeneralized. My main point was that when many people die, often while in hospice care, it’s not from starvation. And many are “out of it”–though certainly not all. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/278 "2010-04-07T15:29:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Baby K. Baby Faith Hope. Her mom kept a blog about how lively she was and how she was sure the doctors were lying and so on. Please don’t read it. It’ll kill your heart. ( [http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/](http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/) ) It’s the story of a delusional woman leading into a horrible tragedy you can see coming. [http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Myah\_Walker](http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Myah_Walker) seems to have some pictures of the child. There is no head above her eyes. (Do not go there either. Trust me.) ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/279 "2010-04-07T16:05:20Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > True, I overgeneralized. My main point was that when many people die, often while in hospice care, it’s not from starvation. And many are “out of it”–though certainly not all. I’m also haunted by the way the aforementioned friend kept trying to make her mom eat during her last, dying days even though the hospice nurses had found out and told her that her mom could no longer swallow. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/280 "2010-04-07T21:40:42Z")
I had an aunt who came down with pancreatic cancer. Didn’t know until liver started failing - jaundice was her first clue. Rather than go through expensive, difficult, and almost certainly futile[sup]1[/sup] treatment, she elected to refuse medical treatment, and refused food and water. Consciously - she wasn’t in a persistant vegetative state or unconsciousness, she was often awake and aware. And in pain. I had another aunt with cancer, after fighting for several months, decide that the end result was futile and chose the same outcome. I personally find that they had to resort to those means to accomplish the inevitable, and that less painful methods were not available, to be apalling. Nevertheless, people do make that decision for themselves. So even assuming that Terri Shiavo had some ability to feel things that were occurring and even assuming she went through tortuous starvation and dehydration (which I don’t believe), that was still in accordance with her previously stated opinion that she did not want to continue “life” in her state. Whatever _your_ opinions, _hers_ were known, and confirmed by multiple parties. Having written them down would have helped and perhaps circumvented some of the circus, but there is little question what her opinion was. **Paul in Qatar** said: > [@](#): > > **Five years on, have you changed your mind about this sad case?** At the time I didn’t follow the details, I didn’t participate in the threads. From my limited study, I knew she had severe brain damage. I did not know about the EEG or CT scans. I did not know details about Michael or her family. My opinion has not changed, only been reinforced, by the information I learned here. **blinkie** said: > [@](#): > > Five years ago when she was ully aware, she made her wishes known. Those wishes should be respected. Her parents, although sympathetic, have no place here. > > It’s not their decision to make, it’s not Mike’s, it certainly isn’t the government or any church. There are 2 situations to consider. Only one is the actual conditions for Terri Shiavo, but the other condition is appropriate for discussions of who decides when… 1. The person has previously stated a decision (in writing, verbally, whatever). In this case, that person’s wishes should be carried out. The trick is how clearly that decision has been expressed and how firmly it can be established. Assuming it can be reasonably established, then it should be met. 2. The person has not previously stated decision, or that decision cannot be clearly established (contradictory statements, never said anything clear, whatever). In _that_ case, **someone** must make the medical decisions for the incapacitated. Without a Power of Attorney, that role falls to the “next of kin”, which legally a spouse trumps any other family. I don’t know the legal order of precedence. I assume there is one, and that if the issue is unclear and there is disagreement, then a legal case would evaluate the situation and make a determination as to who gets to make the decision. In any case, that person makes the decision as to what care to give and what care to withhold. One hopes they act to the best of their knowledge to the benefit of the incapacitated, and to their best ability to comply with that person’s wishes. But in the end, they can only do what they can do. In Terri Shiavo’s case, Michael had the legal authority to make medical decisions for Terri. After exhausting all reasonable (and a few unreasonable) options to save her or improve her condition, he determined she would not get better and sought to end the extreme measures. In this case, he did so in pursuance of what he believed to be her desire, and what other family confirmed was her expressed wishes. Furthermore, he handed the decision off to the courts to preclude the question of his own bias. But up until he handed the matter over to the state, he was the legal guardian and the one who had the legal right to make the decision. Perhaps he had the moral decision to meet her wishes. Suppose the conditions were reversed, and he had been acting against her stated wishes and it was the parents that were trying to uphold her stated wishes. Then the legal battle could have established her stated opinion as “use any and every measure to keep me around as long as possible” or whatever. In that case, I assume the parents would have had a case and could conceivably won the right to guardianship. **Ají de Gallina** said: > [@](#): > > If the person has such clear instructions, I don’t know why they need me. Because regardless of what their instructions are or how clearly they leave them, even if they spell them out in a living will, it falls upon _someone_ to enact them. The hospital/doctors must be informed of that decision. If you are that person’s next of kin, that role falls on you whether you want it or not. > [@](#): > > The idea that a person forcing his beliefs on me (making me pull the plug when I don’t want to) is somehow better than me forcing mine, is ridiculous (even if I’m not forcing anything). I think it important that any of your relatives/potential “next of kin” be informed as to your position, and if they disagree they should ensure they have a Power Of Attorney assigning someone else instead of you to make their medical decisions. Then neither of you are put in the “ridiculous” condition of forcing anything on anyone. > [@](#): > > Is it more humane to kill rather than alleviate pain? Sometimes killing _is_ alleviating pain. I would support medicating anyone in Terry Shiavo’s condition[sup]2[/sup] to quickly cease body functions rather than slow starvation/dehydration. There’s no sense in the latter. The end result is the same, but one of them is far more humane. We treat Death Penalty convicts better. Factual question: what is a “loss of consortium” award? I know it’s the part of the lawsuit results that went to Michael Shiavo, but what does it mean? * * * [sup]1[/sup] Pancreatic cancer is one of the most deadly cancers, because it is not usually detected until late and there really isn’t much effective treatment. Patrick Swayze was a remarkable case for lasting as long as he did. [sup]2[/sup] Okay, Terri Shiavo had no cognative abilities at all, so it really didn’t matter to her, only to stressing out the family and friends watching yet more indignities inflicted upon her body. But other cases, such as my aforementioned aunts, would have been far better off with better options. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=15)