# Terri Schiavo + 5 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872 "2010-03-26T14:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/281 "2010-04-07T21:44:56Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Factual question: what is a “loss of consortium” award? I know it’s the part of the lawsuit results that went to Michael Shiavo, but what does it mean? It is compensation for the lack of rumpy pumpy with your spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/282 "2010-04-08T00:20:06Z")
As in consorting. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/283 "2010-04-08T01:10:13Z")
With a consort. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/284 "2010-04-08T01:41:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think some of the European Press saw the starvation as “barbaric” in that it denied the patient anything more direct and immediate. They were decrying the method, not the result. I think what you’ve said is the closest phrasing (if not th eintention) I’ve seen to expressing my position. I’m sure Terry Schiavo’s life was pretty tenously on this side of death and that accepting her death would be the best. It is the slow, torturous (even if she didn’t feel pain) method by which she died that really gets me. If she’d died minutes after the removal of the tubes I could have accepted that she was artificially being kept alive. But it took days for her to die (or her body to stop functioning). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/285 "2010-04-08T01:46:44Z")
Well, so what? One of the benefits of being in a persistent vegetative state is that she wasn’t actually conscious. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/286 "2010-04-08T02:07:28Z")
You mean sweaty snugglebunnies? ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/287 "2010-04-08T07:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Baby Faith Hope. Her mom kept a blog about how lively she was and how she was sure the doctors were lying and so on. > > Please don’t read it. It’ll kill your heart. ( [http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/](http://babyfaithhope.blogspot.com/) ) > > It’s the story of a delusional woman leading into a horrible tragedy you can see coming. WHAT.THE.FUCK? GOD, I have NEVER EVER seen such an in-denial mom! It’s almost like she thought her wittle Faithy was a dolly! How did I know without even clicking on it, that Myah (LOVE the brainless TrEnDy spelling) was an evalingcal Chirstian? Ten bucks says she lives in a trailer park and is basicly a Sheldon’s mom type. THAT is extreme even for pro lifers. I know plenty of pro lifers who would be OK with a theraputic abortion b/c it’s basicly turning off life support on someone who is profoundly terminally ill. And I can’t believe I’ve never heard of the Baby K case. I’m a news junkie, and was around and regularly reading the papers as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/288 "2010-04-08T07:18:14Z")
Gosh that is sad. What ever happened to the two families? Perhaps we can determine the ‘true’ motives of the parties by looking at their behavior in the last five years. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/289 "2010-04-08T09:59:33Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > WHAT.THE.FUCK? I told you not to look. You shouldn’t have looked. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/290 "2010-04-08T12:00:53Z")
(snipped ) > [@Irishman](#): > > **Ají de Gallina** said: > > Because regardless of what their instructions are or how clearly they leave them, even if they spell them out in a living will, it falls upon _someone_ to enact them. The hospital/doctors must be informed of that decision. If you are that person’s next of kin, that role falls on you whether you want it or not. I still maintain that a person’s will should not be forced on me. I will, as with everything else, use my good conscience. > [@](#): > > I think it important that any of your relatives/potential “next of kin” be informed as to your position, and if they disagree they should ensure they have a Power Of Attorney assigning someone else instead of you to make their medical decisions. Then neither of you are put in the “ridiculous” condition of forcing anything on anyone. Absoulutely agreed. They all either specifically know or should clearly get a big hint if your relative is a conservative catholic. > [@](#): > > Sometimes killing _is_ alleviating pain. I would support medicating anyone in Terry Shiavo’s condition[sup]2[/sup] to quickly cease body functions rather than slow starvation/dehydration. There’s no sense in the latter. The end result is the same, but one of them is far more humane. We treat Death Penalty convicts better. You would be directly and specifically causing the death. That’s a no-no in my book. I understand she didn’t (almost with complete certainty) feel pain. > [@](#): > > [sup]2[/sup] Okay, Terri Shiavo had no cognative abilities at all, so it really didn’t matter to her, only to stressing out the family and friends watching yet more indignities inflicted upon her body. But other cases, such as my aforementioned aunts, would have been far better off with better options. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, so what? One of the benefits of being in a persistent vegetative state is that she wasn’t actually conscious. (I know that’s not what you’re saying) It would be dangerous to make it a rule that “anything goes” with unconscious people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/291 "2010-04-08T13:08:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You would be directly and specifically causing the death. That’s a no-no in my book. To me, this is really hair-splitting. Taking out a feeding tube will cause death, but so will refusing medical treatment or surgery. Is it that important that you be able to tell yourself “the disease killed her, we just stood around and didn’t stop it” instead of “we didn’t keep her alive any longer?” > [@](#): > > It would be dangerous to make it a rule that “anything goes” with unconscious people. Again, nobody has said that’s the case, and it’s not implied or suggested by anything that happened to this woman. Or by anybody’s comments in this thread as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/292 "2010-04-08T13:50:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To me, this is really hair-splitting. Taking out a feeding tube will cause death, but so will refusing medical treatment or surgery. Is it that important that you be able to tell yourself “the disease killed her, we just stood around and didn’t stop it” instead of “we didn’t keep her alive any longer?” > Again, nobody has said that’s the case, and it’s not implied or suggested by anything that happened to this woman. Or by anybody’s comments in this thread as far as I can tell. Is not about confortimg myself, it’s about what think is right. I know this is a pretty tough case (if it weren’t we wouldn’t be discussing it). Still, removing the feeding tube is the cause of death, not the disease. Removing anyone’s feeding tube kills them. Ms. Schiavo’s degree of conscoiusness, pain and suffering could be minimal or zero, still, her body was functioning without external help. Still, if the strength of the case lies on her not feeling pain, you could/might get there, even if nobody’s proposed it here. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/293 "2010-04-08T14:06:12Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > … removing the feeding tube … > > … still, her body was functioning without external help. … How, precisely, do you consider a feeding tube - which requires a surgical procedure to be inserted - as “without external help”? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/294 "2010-04-08T14:09:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Is not about confortimg myself, it’s about what think is right. Right. But my point is that your distinction between what’s right and what’s wrong in this situation looks like hair-splitting to me. > [@](#): > > I know this is a pretty tough case (if it weren’t we wouldn’t be discussing it). > Still, removing the feeding tube is the cause of death, not the disease. Removing anyone’s feeding tube kills them. Yes, it’s tough. But nobody’s claimed she was terminal. They’ve said she was being kept alive by this tube, which she was, and that she’d expressed a wish not to be kept alive by these kinds of artificial means, which it appears she did. I don’t see why it matters that the cause of death was removing the feeding tube instead of, say, letting a tumor grow out of control or a heart or lung shut down. When someone requests that no life-saving or extending measures be taken, that means all measures unless they say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/295 "2010-04-08T14:56:21Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (I know that’s not what you’re saying) It would be dangerous to make it a rule that “anything goes” with unconscious people. Certainly. I’m just saying that in this specific instance her degree of suffering is pretty much immaterial because she had no higher brain function anyway. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Still, removing the feeding tube is the cause of death, not the disease. Removing anyone’s feeding tube kills them. Ms. Schiavo’s degree of conscoiusness, pain and suffering could be minimal or zero, still, her body was functioning without external help. Removing my feeding tube (if one had been inserted) wouldn’t kill me. Removing yours wouldn’t either. I think you have this impression of a feeding tube as a device that pumps food into the mouth, where the patient swallows it. It isn’t. Food is pumped directly into the stomach, which functions without conscious effort. We’re not talking about somebody who couldn’t feed herself because she had no motor control; we’re talking about somebody who couldn’t even ingest food, and wouldn’t have even if she could. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/296 "2010-04-08T15:22:36Z")
Sorta like watering a plant. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/297 "2010-04-08T16:46:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You would be directly and specifically causing the death. That’s a no-no in my book. I understand she didn’t (almost with complete certainty) feel pain. I’ve a question; what would you say about the opposite situation? That is to say, imagine a situation wherein you have within your power the ability to _save_ someone from death. In the first case, you personally act to kill a person. In the second, you are not acting to cause death, but rather, through your _inaction_ that person’s death will occur. Are you, as the active killer in one, and the inactive killer in the other, equally bad in your book? Are action causing an event and inaction allowing an event to happen similar? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/298 "2010-04-08T16:54:29Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > How, precisely, do you consider a feeding tube - which requires a surgical procedure to be inserted - as “without external help”? Yeah, not a great choice of words. I meant that her body (kungs, heart, pancreas) don’t need to helped to perform their works (à la ventilator). > [@Marley23](#): > > Right. But my point is that your distinction between what’s right and what’s wrong in this situation looks like hair-splitting to me. > > Yes, it’s tough. But nobody’s claimed she was terminal. They’ve said she was being kept alive by this tube, which she was, and that she’d expressed a wish not to be kept alive by these kinds of artificial means, which it appears she did. I don’t see why it matters that the cause of death was removing the feeding tube instead of, say, letting a tumor grow out of control or a heart or lung shut down. When someone requests that no life-saving or extending measures be taken, that means all measures unless they say otherwise. I can’t deny a certain hair-splittingness in my argument. It’s they greyest area. I’m afraid I can’t make myself clearer on this subject, I’ve gone as far as I can. Her wishes are hers and the duty to carry them or not was on others’ shoulders. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Certainly. I’m just saying that in this specific instance her degree of suffering is pretty much immaterial because she had no higher brain function anyway. > > Removing my feeding tube (if one had been inserted) wouldn’t kill me. Removing yours wouldn’t either. > > I think you have this impression of a feeding tube as a device that pumps food into the mouth, where the patient swallows it. It isn’t. Food is pumped directly into the stomach, which functions without conscious effort. We’re not talking about somebody who couldn’t feed herself because she had no motor control; we’re talking about somebody who couldn’t even ingest food, and wouldn’t have even if she could. You have the wrong impression. But this means that a quadraplegic whio also can’t move his jaw and tongue would be in the same position. She was being fed. Her stomach and intestines processed food in the same way yours and mine do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/299 "2010-04-08T17:00:18Z")
No, the hypothetical quadriplegic is a totally different scenario. He knows he needs to eat, and would actively seek out food, however he was able. Schiavo didn’t know anything, and would not (and did not) seek food, or even understand what food was. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/300 "2010-04-08T17:13:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, the hypothetical quadriplegic is a totally different scenario. He knows he needs to eat, and would actively seek out food, however he was able. > > Schiavo didn’t know anything, and would not (and did not) seek food, or even understand what food was. that wasn’t the issue. The issue was the mechanics of her feeding. The fully conscious quadraplegic would die. There is no dispute, of course, on the very different levels of consciousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=16)