# Terri Schiavo + 5 years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872 "2010-03-26T14:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/101 "2010-03-30T00:30:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What’s the rush? She suffered for 15 years as a vegetable! If I ever even get remotely like that, pull the plug and take a sword to my brain to make sure. I do not ever want to be in that position and if there was even a sliver of a chance I could be feeling something, then I want someone to end it as soon as possible. Terry made her wishes clear. There is no good coming from preserving life as long as possible. Sometimes people who want to die should just be allowed to Damn right! That’s why I have a living will, complete with “do not resuscitate if in a vegetative state” orders. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/102 "2010-03-30T00:35:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I have not changed my mind but I have had a child in the intervening years. This has made me even more certain that allowing the parents to keep that poor woman alive was the only humane decision possible. I feel awful about what those poor people went through. I have not change my mind either. I wanted to parents to keep her alive. There were many more issues involved in this case than a simple choice between spouse and parent. If those circumstances were taken into account I don’t see how anyone could have voted to stave her to death. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/103 "2010-03-30T00:42:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If those circumstances were taken into account I don’t see how anyone could have voted to stave her to death. Well, staving her would certainly have been quicker. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/104 "2010-03-30T00:48:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Humane for her parents. If her husband was right and she really was brain dead, she was incapable of suffering. If her parents were right, then a helpless woman was going to be starved to death. If there was a possibility that someone wanted to let my child die and there was nothing I could do about, it would be torture. Her parents were willing to take over her care, so what was the downside? Lots of spouses drift apart, but the bond between a parent and a child is forever. > Like you, I had to make the decision to take a loved one off of life support and it was horrible. I can not imagine how much more horrible it would have been if I had believed there was hope for recovery and someone else was insisting it happen anyway. Let the parents take over for a while and try to help her and then if that doesn’t work you can still remove the feeding tube. Why the rush? Her parents were NOT right. That is an established fact, not an opinion. Terri Schiavo had no consciousness or ability to experience anything. Any suggestion to contrary is as absurd as saying somebody just might be able to see without eyes. No they can’t. And they can’t be aware without a brain. Her parents also had no legal standing to override her own wishes. People’s end of life decisions are not subject to rescension by mom and dad. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/105 "2010-03-30T01:22:04Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > An EEG done in 2002 showed no cortical activity. There were probably others done along the way, but that’s the one that is cited in the court papers. This is how I remember it. I wondered why they didn’t do it again as a matter of course instead of referring back to it as a final arbiter of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/106 "2010-03-30T01:31:21Z")
They did do it again, but, in point of fact, there was no reason to. Brains don’t grow back any more than arms or legs do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/107 "2010-03-30T01:47:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They did do it again, but, in point of fact, there was no reason to. Brains don’t grow back any more than arms or legs do. I’m not arguing her condition but I don’t remember any recent brain scans during the proceedings and I was looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/108 "2010-03-30T01:53:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not arguing her condition but I don’t remember any recent brain scans during the proceedings and I was looking for it. She had intrathalamic stimulators implanted at some point after 2002 - which was why an MRI was never performed - so an EEG would essentially have been useless, as it would be recording currents produced by the stimulators as well as whatever brain activity there was (which, as it turned out, was none). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/109 "2010-03-30T03:20:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > She had intrathalamic stimulators implanted at some point after 2002 - which was why an MRI was never performed - so an EEG would essentially have been useless, as it would be recording currents produced by the stimulators as well as whatever brain activity there was (which, as it turned out, was none). That makes sense. For all the searching I did I never came across this. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/110 "2010-03-30T03:28:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is how I remember it. I wondered why they didn’t do it again as a matter of course instead of referring back to it as a final arbiter of sorts. There’s no coming back from “no cortical activity”. A hundred negative brain scans wouldn’t have convinced anyone who didn’t want to be convinced. While I was poking around I found [this article about a study from _Neurology_](http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=351) that documented the atrocities in the media’s Schiavo coverage: > [@](#): > > They found that only 1% of the articles defined persistent vegetative state, a point critical to the story. > > They also found that 21% of reports indicated that there was hope of recovery. I remember how horrible it was. (It’s why I spent so much time (here and elsewhere) trying to set facts straight.) And yet one study asked people if they would want to be kept alive if they were in Schiavo’s situation, and even with the misinformation out there something like 87% of people said they wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/111 "2010-03-30T08:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Meanwhile, her parents’ actions were nothing short of ghastly at times. I doubt they’re bad people, but they were blinded by false hope and they were certainly latched onto and encouraged by bad people. > > It bothers me that advocates for the disabled hitched their wagon to this case, because they’re making a different argument than the relevant one. Of course Terri Schiavo had a right to go on living in her situation, and to the best medical care and the most dignity possible. But she also had the right to not go on living in that situation, and that was where the argument came in. AMEN! While it’s pretty much a fact we have only the vaguest idea of how the body works, there are STILL quite a few cases where it’s so freaking obvious that the parents are really severely in denial about how profoundly affected their kid is. I think part of it was the terminlogy used. It irrirtates me when the media uses the term “severe” as a synomyn for profound. Sorry, but there is a difference. People think “severe, and they think their little Smashlie who is a teenager but has the mentality of a toddler. Then everyone gets upset. " Oh NOES! They are trying to kill off people with disabilites!” No. It’s that the public does not understand the difference between severe and profound disabilites. Hell, maybe there should even be a subcatagory called extreme profound, for people who are extremely profoundly affected. I am a hardcore disabilty rights advocate. Hardcore. But the general public and a lot of parents do not understand that for a significent minority of people, they don’t have ANY quality of life. They’re not “disabled” They literally aren’t THERE any more! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/112 "2010-03-30T12:27:09Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > AMEN! While it’s pretty much a fact we have only the vaguest idea of how the body works, there are STILL quite a few cases where it’s so freaking obvious that the parents are really severely in denial about how profoundly affected their kid is. I think part of it was the terminlogy used. It irrirtates me when the media uses the term “severe” as a synomyn for profound. Sorry, but there is a difference. People think “severe, and they think their little Smashlie who is a teenager but has the mentality of a toddler. Then everyone gets upset. " Oh NOES! They are trying to kill off people with disabilites!” No. It’s that the public does not understand the difference between severe and profound disabilites. Hell, maybe there should even be a subcatagory called extreme profound, for people who are extremely profoundly affected. > I am a hardcore disabilty rights advocate. Hardcore. But the general public and a lot of parents do not understand that for a significent minority of people, they don’t have ANY quality of life. They’re not “disabled” They literally aren’t THERE any more! In Terry’s case there were doctors claiming she was a vegatable, while other doctors claimed she was reacting to them. I guess you just pick which one you wish to believe in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/113 "2010-03-30T13:00:54Z")
IIRC, the doctors claiming the woman was reacting were the doctors who had not actually examined the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/114 "2010-03-30T13:19:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In Terry’s case there were doctors claiming she was a vegatable, while other doctors claimed she was reacting to them. I guess you just pick which one you wish to believe in that case. Not true. Not one of the doctors who examined her thought she was reacting to them. The only doctors who ever said that she even _might_ have some awareness were paid by the parents and did not examine her directly. This is kind of beside the point anyway since the EEG and brains cans proved beyond all doubt that she had no awareness, and did not have the part of the brain where consiousness resides. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/115 "2010-03-30T13:23:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > IIRC, the doctors claiming the woman was reacting were the doctors who had not actually examined the woman. Originally, this was the case. However, there were two doctors testifying before the court (part of a panel of five) who opined that there was hope of recovery, but (surprise surprise) both were peddling unproven and improbable miracle therapies. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/116 "2010-03-30T13:36:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In Terry’s case there were doctors claiming she was a vegatable, while other doctors claimed she was reacting to them. **I guess you just pick which one you wish to believe in that case.** (Emphasis mine) Which is, of course, exactly what you seem to be doing. As has been pointed out, the doctors who said that Terry was responsive were those who were paid by the parents (or other interested outside parties) and who actually hadn’t examined her. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/117 "2010-03-31T12:41:05Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > (Emphasis mine) > > Which is, of course, exactly what you seem to be doing. As has been pointed out, the doctors who said that Terry was responsive were those who were paid by the parents (or other interested outside parties) and who actually hadn’t examined her. Yes, you are right, and the doctors who said she was a vegetable were paid for by the husband who wanted Terry dead so he could marry the woman he had children with and was living with before? or after Terry’s strange accident about which he was question extensively. It is not clear exactly what happened, but it is clear he wanted her dead. It made his life less complicated. Now I don’t know exactly what happened or whether she was a vegetable or not. But the whole scenario was raft with questions that needed to be answered. I don’t have the faith most do in MRI’s and things like that, there is more to being human than just a body. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/118 "2010-03-31T13:02:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, you are right, and the doctors who said she was a vegetable were paid for by the husband who wanted Terry dead so he could marry the woman he had children with and was living with before? No, they were not. This was known at the time and has already been discussed in this thread. Please get your facts straight. Her care was handled by the court. He was not living with another woman when Terri Schaivo had her “strange accident.” She and Michael Schaivo were married at the time and while it was sudden, some causes have been suggested. He began a relationship with another woman many years later with the blessing of the Schindler family. > [@](#): > > Now I don’t know exactly what happened or whether she was a vegetable or not. Clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/119 "2010-03-31T13:57:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, you are right, and the doctors who said she was a vegetable were paid for by the husband who wanted Terry dead so he could marry the woman he had children with and was living with before? No they weren’t, actually. They were apponited by the court, and he coul have gotten married regardless. That’s a ridiculous insinusation. Terri’s parents were the one who encouraged him to start another family, by the way.. > [@](#): > > or after Terry’s strange accident about which he was question extensively. It is not clear exactly what happened, but it is clear he wanted her dead. It made his life less complicated. Now I don’t know exactly what happened or whether she was a vegetable or not. But the whole scenario was raft with questions that needed to be answered. I don’t have the faith most do in MRI’s and things like that, there is more to being human than just a body. This contaons too many falsehoods to even bother with. You don’t know what you’re talking about. For someone who claims to be so spiritual, you sure don’t have a problem with bearing false witness. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872/120 "2010-03-31T14:04:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, you are right, and the doctors who said she was a vegetable were paid for by the husband who wanted Terry dead so he could marry the woman he had children with and was living with before? or after Terry’s strange accident about which he was question extensively. It is not clear exactly what happened, but it is clear he wanted her dead. It made his life less complicated. Now I don’t know exactly what happened or whether she was a vegetable or not. But the whole scenario was raft with questions that needed to be answered. I don’t have the faith most do in MRI’s and things like that, there is more to being human than just a body. That is a f\*cking despicable accusation to make. You should be ashamed of yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-5-years/533872.md?page=7)