# Terri Schiavo, Now that we have all calmed down **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375 "2005-05-25T02:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/241 "2005-06-22T11:32:46Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Without theories, scientific facts, methods, and critical thinking, how will you know truth when you find it? Like the Tin Man, will you just \*feel \* it, in your heart? I like my truth a bit more substantial, myself. Yes, I feel truth, and so do you. As Yoda said: “you will know truth by its peace and calm.” There is a lot to be learned from your feelings, especially about yourself. By this, I am not saying we should do away with science, just understand there is more than science, in this world, that leads to knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/242 "2005-06-22T12:13:28Z")
Throw away the evidence and just believe whatever makes you feel good, because a fictional character tells you to? Throw out Einstein, Gallileo, Edison, Darwin etc. and follow poorly written hackwork uttered by a puppet?? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/243 "2005-06-22T12:42:20Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I have not. I was raised by a ruthless automaton who taught me to value p=.05 above all else. I wore a gray jumpsuit every day (although at the prom I was allowed to wear a pink cummerbund with it). > > Can you teach me? Can you show me the love of truth, honesty and integrity? Can you show me how Michael Schiavo violated these things, because I cling to a basis in fact as my guideline. How can I find the truth while simultaneously avoiding any facts? Show me, and release me from my empirical torment, my cell of cold facts, my daily ration of rational thought. You post only to mock, you are not ready to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/244 "2005-06-22T12:47:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You post only to mock, you are not ready to learn. Shouldn’t that be, “Only to mock, you post; not ready to learn, you are” ? ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/245 "2005-06-22T12:48:24Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You post only to mock, you are not ready to learn. Because you, and only you, have all the answers. Let me sit at your feet, oh master. Condescend much? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/246 "2005-06-22T12:51:07Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > You, on the other hand, only presume to know the mind of God. It’s apparently a revealed truth to you that Michael beat the living crap out of her and wished her nothing but dead, dead, dead from the moment they first met. > > You can’t help but to want to know what happened. Nope, you can’t stand that you know what happened and it doesn’t fit your world view. I said nothing about knowing the mind of God, I am seeking the truth, not knowing it. Because others have different opinions don’t bother me at all, I learn from them if I can. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/247 "2005-06-22T12:55:23Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > What a sad fact that you learned none of those values. > > You have ignored truth, repeated lies, and have shown a bankruptcy of integrity. > > What is truly obscure is what you are getting out of this. A very strong personal attack. I forgive you, have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/248 "2005-06-22T13:02:25Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I have a cousin who, when she was 27, collapsed while working out at the gym. Her heart stopped for several minutes and she suffered fairly severe brain damage. I have no fear whatsoever that her life is in some way endangered because of what happened to Terri Schiavo. Here’s why. My cousin may never fully recover from her attack, but ever since it happened she has responded well and positively to treatment, barring the odd set back. Not only does she talk and follow objects, she plays cards and well. Her short term memory is gone, but not her long term. She knows who her family and old friends are, even though she couldn’t remember someone she worked for a couple of years before her stroke. She lives with her parents who had their home modified for her wheelchair. She’s about as far from being in a Persistent Vegetative State as I am. > > On the other hand, this past January, my 90 year old grandmother also collapsed. She spent part of a day in a nursing home, then was taken to a hospital where she died less than 24 hours later. **I thank God** that **lekatt** and his ilk weren’t around to jam tubes into her stomach and into her veins and prolong a life that she was ready to have end. Grandmama had been a widow for over 35 years and had outlived most of her friends. She was horrified by the idea of being stuck in a hospital or nursing home, supported by machines in a travesty of the active life she enjoyed, as does my mother, as do I. The last thing Grandmama saw was 3 of her 4 children going happily off to lunch together while she drifted off to sleep. The fourth, my mother, was on her way to her bedside in England, as Grandmama knew. > > Prolonging the existence of a body the soul has long since departed isn’t love; it’s hatred and willful cruelty in my book. Over-riding what a person has said repeatedly that they want in the name of whatever deity one claims to follow isn’t faith; it’s tyranny. I’d prefer an honest hatred to something which claims to be love but takes that form. At least hatred has a certain integrity in that it doesn’t claim to have my best interests at heart. **Lekatt** , my opinion of you and your integrity is extremely low, yet I proclaim here and in public by all I hold Holy which is a great deal more than you give me credit for, that, if I am ever in a position to decide what happens should you become incapacitated, I will do everything in my power including using physical force to see to it that your wishes are carried out. If you don’t want life support ended, be it a respirator or a feeding tube or only one or the other, I will do everything I can to prevent that life support from being ended. > > The courtesy you appear unwilling to grant me, those I love, or Ms. Schiavo is that of similarly respecting our wishes. It doesn’t appear to matter to you that I, my family, and my closest friends know I don’t want to be hooked to a feeding tube or respirator. You in the name of something you call “love” apparently see fit to override those wishes and prolong what should be a natural, graceful, Grace-filled act. You’ve levelled incredibly vile accusations against a man who sought only to do what his wife repeatedly said she wanted. With friends like you, I’ll take my enemies. > > CJ You have misjudged me, try reading my posts again. Terri’s case was a lot like your cousin’s, not your grandmother’s. I am glad your cousin recovered. Had Terri had that opportunity, who knows. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/249 "2005-06-22T13:09:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Throw away the evidence and just believe whatever makes you feel good, because a fictional character tells you to? Throw out Einstein, Gallileo, Edison, Darwin etc. and follow poorly written hackwork uttered by a puppet?? The words were written by George Lucas, an enlightened individual who accumulated a fortune by knowing human thinking and how to improve it. He also wrote: “Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.” His insight is spiritual. His movies move and inspire others to be greater than they think they are. That’s why they are so popular. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/250 "2005-06-22T13:11:57Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > Because you, and only you, have all the answers. Let me sit at your feet, oh master. > > Condescend much? When you are ready to learn you will not sit at the feet of your master. You will walk with him as a equal. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/251 "2005-06-22T13:18:44Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Cite? It is my understanding that, other than the grandstanding and publicity, this case was like dozens (hundreds?) of other cases that happen regularly across the country. The only threat to the treatment of helpless people that I’ve seen are the poorly considered and hastily enacted laws that the Legislature and Congress kept throwing out. Contraire. If this case had really been like hundreds of others it would not have reached the publicity it got. It was precisely because it was different that it was “grandstanded.” People want to know, they value truth, at least most of them. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/252 "2005-06-22T13:22:49Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I have already made a basket of documentation for my family assuring them this is way of death is just fine for me. Yes, everyone should have in writing what their wishes are concerning death. They should also have a will for the distribution of their property. I have seen that get pretty nasty also. That way it will not be necessary to rely on “hearsay” information at such an important time. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/253 "2005-06-22T13:49:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > When you are ready to learn you will not sit at the feet of your master. You will walk with him as a equal. And again, you speak with knowledge from on high. When you are ready to learn, you’ll re-read these threads and understand what the word “evidence” means. You do pretend to know the mind of god because you claim that removing the feeding tube was wholly immoral. How do you know that it wasn’t “god’s plan” to have her off the tube? How? How? How? How do you know that the will of god was subverted by by removing the feeding tube? How do you know that the work of the lord was being done by having her on the tube? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/254 "2005-06-22T13:54:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Contraire. > > If this case had really been like hundreds of others it would not have reached the publicity it got. It was precisely because it was different that it was “grandstanded.” People want to know, they value truth, at least most of them. Actually, the fact that it was grandstanded is why it was different. Which is totally the opposite of your take on it. The only reason it got any publicity whatsoever is because the parents of the central figure in this situation were mentally unstable and deep in denial, and their otherwise not-particularly-unusual resistance to their daughter’s wishes was glommed onto by members of a particular political party and run with as if it were 4th down and 3 seconds to go in the game. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/255 "2005-06-22T13:56:13Z")
Darn…hit submit too soon. Fortunately, that political party appears to have run the wrong way on the field and is finding that the 2 points they got for the safety isn’t going to make up for the jeers and boos that their horrible sense of direction is earning them. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/256 "2005-06-22T13:58:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You have misjudged me, try reading my posts again. Terri’s case was a lot like your cousin’s, not your grandmother’s. I am glad your cousin recovered. Had Terri had that opportunity, who knows. She _didn’t_ have that opportunity. Her mind was gone and she was in worse physical condition when she collapsed. I realize that there is probably no amount of evidence in this world which will convince you of that, but that is the cold, hard, brutal fact which you and Ms. Schiavo’s parents have refused to face. Death happens. Sometimes it’s a mercy; sometimes it’s a nightmare. What you have consistently advocated concerning Ms. Schiavo over the past few months is something I see as one of my worst nightmares. Your insistence that you are right, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, is what leads some of us to consider you willfully ignorant. I understand that having life support cut off when there’s a chance you might recover may well be as great a horror for you as being connected to a bunch of tubes long after my soul has departed my body is for me. That does not excuse your saying I’m against religion as you did a few pages ago and it does not allow you to impose your will on me or mine. CJ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/257 "2005-06-22T16:07:07Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > She _didn’t_ have that opportunity. Her mind was gone and she was in worse physical condition when she collapsed. I realize that there is probably no amount of evidence in this world which will convince you of that, but that is the cold, hard, brutal fact which you and Ms. Schiavo’s parents have refused to face. > > Death happens. Sometimes it’s a mercy; sometimes it’s a nightmare. What you have consistently advocated concerning Ms. Schiavo over the past few months is something I see as one of my worst nightmares. Your insistence that you are right, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, is what leads some of us to consider you willfully ignorant. > > I understand that having life support cut off when there’s a chance you might recover may well be as great a horror for you as being connected to a bunch of tubes long after my soul has departed my body is for me. That does not excuse your saying I’m against religion as you did a few pages ago and it does not allow you to impose your will on me or mine. > > CJ Again, read my posts. There are no hard, cold, brutal facts anywhere in this case. There are only hearsay and opinions. There are no mountains of evidence, to prove anything. I am not religious, I am not against religion. I ask for truth, I impose my will on no one. Please read carefully. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/258 "2005-06-22T16:11:50Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > And again, you speak with knowledge from on high. When you are ready to learn, you’ll re-read these threads and understand what the word “evidence” means. > > You do pretend to know the mind of god because you claim that removing the feeding tube was wholly immoral. How do you know that it wasn’t “god’s plan” to have her off the tube? How? How? How? How do you know that the will of god was subverted by by removing the feeding tube? How do you know that the work of the lord was being done by having her on the tube? I do not claim anything. you are speaking only from opinion not facts. You sure don’t know anything about me or what I believe. You really shouldn’t claim you can read the thoughts and desires of others. Makes you look bad. Read the posts and quote them next time. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/259 "2005-06-22T16:17:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Actually, the fact that it was grandstanded is why it was different. Which is totally the opposite of your take on it. The only reason it got any publicity whatsoever is because the parents of the central figure in this situation were mentally unstable and deep in denial, and their otherwise not-particularly-unusual resistance to their daughter’s wishes was glommed onto by members of a particular political party and run with as if it were 4th down and 3 seconds to go in the game. Are you a psychiatrist? I have never seen such a fanciful explanation of the case. What political party do you speak of? Some say it was the religious right that did it, others say this and that. Where is your evidence? Please show it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/260 "2005-06-22T16:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > There are no hard, cold, brutal facts anywhere in this case. There are only hearsay and opinions. Actually, there are a number of hard, cold, brutal facts in this case: We have an autopsy that demonstrates that Ms. Schiavo truly was in a persistent vegetative state. _(Medical testimony is not hearsay. Medical testimony that is published for review and is supported by all other medical reviewers moves beyond mere opinion.)_ We have an initial trial for malpractice with the expert testimony of both the palintiff and the defendant agreeing to the medical particulars. _(Medical testimony is not hearsay. Competing sides presenting the same testimony eliminated the possibilty of mere opinion.)_ We have the testimony of the Schindlers before and during the malpractice suit that Michael Schiavo was a caring and loving husband contrasted to the testimony of the Schindlers after Mr. Schiavo spent the results of that trial on Mrs. Schiavo’s care that he was abusive. _(This means that we have one set of players contradicting themselves, indicating that they have lied. This is not hearsay; it is their own testimony. This is not opinion, it is clear evidence.)_ There are a number of cold, hard, brutal facts. That you choose to ignore the ones that displease you only reflects poorly on your claims to be seeking truth, not on the actual truth of the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=14)