# Terri Schiavo, Now that we have all calmed down **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375 "2005-05-25T02:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/61 "2005-05-29T12:53:51Z")
> [@Tinkertoy](#): > > I’ve walked in their shoes, I’ve made that decision for my 14 year old daughter, so may I criticize? They were wrong. They should be ashamed of themselves for taking what should have been a private decision and turning it into an attention whoring media circus. I hope their daughter forgives them for their selfish disregard of her dignity. I too have made that decision for both of my parents. The problem here with the “attention whoring media circus” was the many unanswered questions. When a situation gets this much attention it is because of those questions. It is not over yet, there are private investigators looking into the situation now to attempt to answer all the contradictions. I see this as a good thing. I have faith the truth will prevail in the end, it always does. Then it can be left in dignity. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/62 "2005-05-29T13:02:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Okay, I erased what I had typed here originally, both for board rules and personal morality reasons. I DON’T wish you to go through what Terri Schiavo went through. I don’t wish that on anyone. But I do hope that your persistence in slandering Michael Schiavo to shore up your fuzzy-headed personal cosmology causes a massive karma hit. Dealing with the effects of such a thing may at least keep you from posting massive pieces of refuse such as your posts in this thread. How about your persistence in slandering Terri’s family, is that ok. If you don’t want anyone to die that way why were you for it. Your post seems full of contradictions to me. But maybe I missed something. As for my “fuzzy-headed personal cosmology”, whatever that means, does not include believing in eternal punishment, so knock off the personal attacks please. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/63 "2005-05-29T13:10:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We DID have, proof, **Lekattt** , as every court decided. > > And there was nothing “horrible” about how Terri died. She could not feel pain. A court decision is not proof of anything, it is an opinion as applied to the law. As for Terri’s pain, the doctors couldn’t agree on anything. My opinion is that she felt all the pain, right along with the millions of people who sympathized with her. Have you ever been in a situation where someone was being starved and helpless to aid them. Those who wanted to help were compassionate human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/64 "2005-05-29T14:17:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > A court decision is not proof of anything, it is an opinion as applied to the law. And supported by every other judge that examined the case. As well as supported by the medical testimony. > [@](#): > > As for Terri’s pain, the doctors couldn’t agree on anything. Yes they could. You should not listen to the quacks who were saying otherwise. > [@](#): > > My opinion is that she felt all the pain, right along with the millions of people who sympathized with her. Have you ever been in a situation where someone was being starved and helpless to aid them. Those who wanted to help were compassionate human beings. They were grandstanders who didn’t understand the situation or preferred to do things for some ‘greater good’. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/65 "2005-05-29T14:19:56Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How about your persistence in slandering Terri’s family, is that ok. Where is this slander of the Schindlers? I see none where you quoted. By comparison, MS was made out to be a demon by the Schindlers. Maybe you do not know what word means, more likely you have a conveniently felxible definition of what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/66 "2005-05-29T14:24:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I too have made that decision for both of my parents. The problem here with the “attention whoring media circus” was the many unanswered questions. There were none. This situation was clear as glass. What questions remain? > [@](#): > > When a situation gets this much attention it is because of those questions. It is not over yet, there are private investigators looking into the situation now to attempt to answer all the contradictions. I see this as a good thing. I have faith the truth will prevail in the end, it always does. Whose private investigators? > [@](#): > > Then it can be left in dignity. Dignity was thrown out the window by the Schindlers some time ago. They mad a media circus in an effort to get knee-jerk reactions from politicians. They got it. Fortunately, the courts remembered that they were judges of the law. If there were any questions, the courts would have addressed them. Certainly the Schindlers had enough chances to bring such matters to the courts attention. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/67 "2005-05-29T17:41:22Z")
I largely stayed out of the Schiavo mess the first time around, but now I am back in the clinics, in Texas, where we have a futile care law, and have ended up talking a lot about this case (as well as the Sun Hudson case, which was in our hospital system). We have a tried and true system for medical decisions in cases of incapacity. There are tried and true legal appeals to this system. What you saw in the Schiavo case was this system working perfectly. The attempt of the Schindlers to muscle in on this, and the attempt to label this as a “culture of life” issue is IMHO very radical and very dangerous. As an endpoint, what they are saying is that the right to withhold treatment can be overridden by anyone who acts to prolong life. “Where there is a doubt, we should err on the side of life.” What is less clear is that in every case, there can be doubt, even if you have advanced directives. It was expressed by some on that side (I will see if I can find cites) that even personal explicit instructions should be allowed to be overridden by outside parties in these cases. It certainly seems like the endpoint of the Schiavo case would have exactly been this; under the current situation, there was an umambiguous legal conclusion as to what Terri would have wanted done with her body. Yet every effort was made to overturn this. This should alarm all of us – it is a clear infringement of the most personal of rights. It essentially takes away your right to do what you want with your own body. If you are lying on your deathbed and waive another round of chemo, your estanged brother can step in and demand that you take it. I don’t think it is alarmist to envision that scenario arising from such an implementation of this logic. Many medical situations arise in which “life” isn’t the best outcome; always “erring on the side of life” is a horrible, horrible precedent to set. Now some medical aspects. The autopsy will not be informative. It is possible that it may reveal evidence of 15 year old healed fractures if they exist, but these will not be conclusive for anything – these could have been sustained in her initial fall and not as the result of the abuse. Nor will it be likely, given that every previous exam and scan has been negative for these and that such a finding will likely be extremely subtle. The anatomical evaluation of the brain will probably reveal large segments ot deficit, but these are impossible to correlate with a neurologic status. PVS is a clinical diagnosis. Large neurologic deficits can result from relatively minor anatomic injuries and vice-versa: often large neurologic injuries can be nearly invisible clinically. There is a 1980 article in _Science_ entitled “Is Your Brain Really Necessary?” that reviews the case of a British math grad student, operating at a very high level, who, upon CT, was shown to have a tiny cortical rim with huge ventricles as the result of congenital hydrocephalus. So either side – I can’t imagine anything startling will be added by the autopsy. Don’t get your hopes up or act like the results will change anything. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/68 "2005-05-29T19:06:37Z")
What I find ironic is the folks who bluster over the “sanctity of life,” abortion and euthanasia but don’t mind us going to war and blowing the unholy f\*\*k out of nations of little brown people. This is not a gripe about the war, I just have a hard time buying any “life is sacred” argument from the politicians and activist groups. I don’t trust any people with the inability to state their principles and stick to them to legislate any kind of morality. Keep the government away from my liquified brain stem. Let my spouse make the decision. I’m not going to care too much once my brain is so much goo in a soft shell. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/69 "2005-05-29T21:50:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have faith the truth will prevail in the end, it always does. Then it can be left in dignity. I find that increasingly hard to believe. What you seem to have faith in is that **your** beliefs will be upheld. And I gotta say that no such thing will happen. And as **Mr. Miskatonic** points out, any shred of dignity got flushed by the Schindler’s when they began to claim (against all medical evidence) that she might get better. > [@lekatt](#): > > As for Terri’s pain, the doctors couldn’t agree on anything. Again, yes they could. Those who you chose to listen to (up to and certainly including Bill Frist) were all over the place, but they had absolutely no firsthand knowledge of the situation at hand. > [@lekatt](#): > > My opinion is that she felt all the pain, right along with the millions of people who sympathized with her. . .Those who wanted to help were compassionate human beings. And you’re welcome to your opinion, however misguided it may be. As to your claim that DeLay, Frist, Bush _fils_, were the compassionate ones, well, you have an awfully strange way of defining “compassionate”. For instance, **my** definition does not include making a mockery of medicine by using outdated video footage without indicating that it wasn’t taken a week or so before and/or diagnosing someone via long distance. You, it seems, feel differently. _C’est la vie_ and all like that. Waste ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/70 "2005-05-29T22:06:45Z")
> [@Wartime Consigliori](#): > > he didn’t pull a George Wallace and send in the National Guard to reinsert her feeding tube. Your point about Jeb Bush is well taken. Let’s hope it works out that way. Just a little historical correction: Wallace did not send in the National Guard. _Au contraire_. He “stood in the schoolhouse door” as a bit of empty grandstanding before the federalized National Guard integrated the school against his wishes. Federal marshals made him move out the way. And you call yourself a Southerner… ---
**Author:** ![RickNZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@RickNZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickNZ)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/71 "2005-05-30T00:43:49Z")
We are our memories, without memories we are a new life form, with no chance of adding new memories we are an animate object. We are our minds, our body is our tool to interact with the world and a mind sustainer. Terri Schiavo died in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage because of lack of oxygen. Her family should of had the courage to let her go then. Instead they tried to put off acceptance of her death. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/72 "2005-05-30T01:47:40Z")
> [@Hung Mung](#): > > What I find ironic is the folks who bluster over the “sanctity of life,” abortion and euthanasia but don’t mind us going to war and blowing the unholy f\*\*k out of nations of little brown people. Hung, this sort of outburst is unwelcome here. It is a personal attack on people who you do not know, it is also a racist generalization. People who disagree with you on the TS case do not always disagree with you on various issues of war. Further, not everyone on this board is white. Many of us are from nations of ‘little brown people.’ We do not take kindly to your characterization of our friends and family. Finally, cursing is unwelcome here in Great Debates. If you are unable to restrain yourself, please confine your rants to The Pit, or to some other less part of the internet. Also, you have no understanding of the word ‘ironic.’ ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/73 "2005-05-31T04:21:20Z")
**lekatt** , would you have been pacified if she had been put to rest by less ‘cruel’ means? For example, euthanasia? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/74 "2005-05-31T07:56:12Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Hung, this sort of outburst is unwelcome here. It is a personal attack on people who you do not know, it is also a racist generalization. People who disagree with you on the TS case do not always disagree with you on various issues of war. > > Further, not everyone on this board is white. Many of us are from nations of ‘little brown people.’ We do not take kindly to your characterization of our friends and family. > > Finally, cursing is unwelcome here in Great Debates. If you are unable to restrain yourself, please confine your rants to The Pit, or to some other less part of the internet. > > Also, you have no understanding of the word ‘ironic.’ And now HungMung gets to see a JuniorMod in action. See, a JuniorMod is a self appointed rules lawyer, not content to report a post to an ACTUAL moderator, but to attain closure behaves as if they have authority. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/75 "2005-05-31T08:00:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > A court decision is not proof of anything, it is an opinion as applied to the law. > > As for Terri’s pain, the doctors couldn’t agree on anything. My opinion is that she felt all the pain, right along with the millions of people who sympathized with her. Have you ever been in a situation where someone was being starved and helpless to aid them. Those who wanted to help were compassionate human beings. No, they were either in pain and deluding themselves or they were opportunistic parasites capitolizing on their pain and the power of the public spectacle. There was more spin from them than in many election campaigns and just about ass much truth. You are unwilling to think that you could be wrong and have allowed yourself to be taken in by their lies. Why hang around a board devoted to eradicating ignorance when you hold on to ignorance like Linus holding his security blanket? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/76 "2005-05-31T11:20:33Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Finally, cursing is unwelcome here in Great Debates. If you are unable to restrain yourself, please confine your rants to The Pit, or to some other less part of the internet. It is? I had no fucking idea! I’m so mortified. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/77 "2005-05-31T12:11:26Z")
‘Junior Mod?’ At my age, I am happy to be a ‘junior’ anything. I would say I am sorry I went off on the guy, but it is wrong to lie, so I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/78 "2005-05-31T12:22:05Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > ‘Junior Mod?’ At my age, I am happy to be a ‘junior’ anything. > > I would say I am sorry I went off on the guy, but it is wrong to lie, so I won’t. And you didn’t just report the post to a moderator because…? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/79 "2005-05-31T14:08:42Z")
Why such an article is in the New York Review of Books, I couldn’t tell you, but in the June 9th issue [author Joan Didion presents her analysis of the case](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18050). I haven’t studied it carefully, but she appears to be skeptical of the accepted cause of Mrs. Schiavo’s heart attack, and to give credence to some of the abuse claims against Mr. Schiavo. I’ll read the article before making specific criticisms, but I expect to discover she’s full of shit (apologies to **Paul in Saudi** for my potty-mouth). ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/80 "2005-05-31T16:52:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you didn’t just report the post to a moderator because…? Honestly, I did not think of it before my morning coffee. In any case, I have never done it before. (It is the little warning sigh triangle thing, right?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=5)