# Terri Schiavo, Now that we have all calmed down **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375 "2005-05-25T02:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/141 "2005-06-04T12:32:49Z")
> [@Burnt Sugar](#): > > I read your posts. I think you’re being wilfully ignorant so you don’t have to rethink your world view. Ahhh fork. That was me, if anyone cares. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/142 "2005-06-04T15:09:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You sound just like those preachers, you attack people and you become like them. > Science is not God, and science doesn’t have all the answers. Not hardly. I attack hypocrisy, stupidity, and cynical men USING someone for their own twisted purposes. I am not doing this to get elected, deflect attention away from an ethics investigation, boost my TV ratings, or line my pockets with other people’s money. God spoke a long time ago on this. Ever hear of “a time to live, a time to die”? > [@](#): > > Ecclesiastes: A season is set for everything, a time for every experience under heaven: > **A time for being born and a time for dying** , > A time for planting and a time for uprooting the planted; How about “Jesus at Calvary: **into your hands I commend my spirit** ”? [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980126/file.live\_and\_let\_die.sh11.html-](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980126/file.live_and_let_die.sh11.html-) > [@](#): > > Society required that he keep living that nightmare, that he “soldier on” for perhaps another 40 years–his father Joaquin is 92. Such is our collective fear of “surrendering” to death. We negate death to the point that a gentle man is forced to struggle without the use of arms or legs to devise a way to obtain and ingest cyanide. At night. Away from home. Illegally. > > Ramon Sampedro was denied what Camus called “a happy death.” [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7276850/site/newsweek/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7276850/site/newsweek/) > [@](#): > > He says **Schiavo, who has a moral right to die, has been exploited by the religious right to further its agenda** —and if the pope himself, who has no known living will, were in a similar situation, it would be “an invitation to open chaos” at the Vatican. Paris spoke to NEWSWEEK’s Brian Braiker about euthanasia, high-tech life support and moral obligations. > This has to be seen in the context of the pope’s 1980 Declaration on Euthanasia, which says that one need not use disproportionately burdensome measures to sustain life. Even if the treatment is in place, if it proves burdensome it can be removed. The terms you’ll hear them talk about all the time are “ordinary” and “extraordinary.” > Extraordinary never referred to technique or to hardware—it referred to moral obligation. What are we obliged to do? > **The church doctrine, and it’s been consistent for 400 years, is that one is not morally obliged to undergo any intervention.** > Right-to-lifers aren’t attacking this Jesuit priest, me; they’re now attacking all the bishops of Florida saying they are deviating from the pope. What the right-to-lifers want to say is the pope said you must always use artificial nutrition and fluids for patients in persistent vegetative state—and there’s no exception. \*\*The Florida bishops say that’s not what the church has taught and that’s surely not what this means.\*\*The editorial page of The New York Times said she has been “exploited” by the religious right in this country. > I agree with that. First of all, this is not a fight about a feeding tube in a woman in Florida. **This is a fight about the political power of the Christian right**. The argument from Bishop Sgreccia is like saying, “Tom DeLay just said, ‘In America we never stop feeding tubes’.” That doesn’t make it true. The fact of the matter is that **feeding tubes are removed every day in hospitals around this country**. We solved this question medically in the United States in 1984 when the American Medical Association said that patients who are terminally ill and/or in a persistent vegetative state, it is ethically acceptable to remove all medical interventions, including artificial nutrition and fluids. That’s the official statement of the American Medical Association. > How does the stance of Schiavo supporters in the church reflect religious teaching about death? > Here’s the question I ask of these right-to-lifers, including Vatican bishops: as we enter into Holy Week and we proclaim that death is not triumphant and that with the power of resurrection and the glory of Easter we have the triumph of Christ over death, what are they talking about by presenting death as an unmitigated evil? It doesn’t fit Christian context. Richard McCormick, who was the great Catholic moral theologian of the last 25 years, wrote a brilliant article in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1974 called “To Save or Let Die.” He said there are two great heresies in our age (and heresy is a strong word in theology—these are false doctrines). One is that life is an absolute good and the other is that death is an absolute evil. We believe that \*\*life was created and is a good, but a limited good. Therefore the obligation to sustain it is a limited one. The parameters that mark off those limits are your capacities to function as a human. \*\* [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7305206/site/newsweek/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7305206/site/newsweek/) > [@](#): > > Could there be—perish the thought—politics at work here? Knowing that they cannot deliver on a gay-rights amendment or abortion ban, Karl Rove & Co. **settled on bonding to the base with the Schiavo case**. The beauty part, as Ross Perot used to say, was that **they could be cynical and sincere at the same time, even if it meant twisting themselves into ideological pretzels. The same conservatives who have spent the last generation attacking “judicial activism” and federal intrusion in state jurisdictions were suddenly advocating what they had so long abhorred.** > They argue they had a moral duty to intervene. If Terri had been on a respirator, like Sun Hudson, there would have been no issue, they claim. But a feeding tube is different. **Says who? Says the pope, for one. Of course the pope also says that the war in Iraq is wrong, the death penalty is wrong and the West has been too stingy in sharing its wealth. So never mind the pope**. > But if you’re going to accuse Michael Schiavo and the judiciary of murder (right-wing blogs and talk radio) or commit virtual malpractice by “examining” a patient long distance via outdated and heavily edited video (Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist) or advocate breaking the law by sending in state troopers to reattach the feeding tube (Pat Buchanan and William Bennett), you’d better be willing to look in the mirror. > The right wing should be ashamed of the way it has treated this man, who spent the first seven years after Terri’s collapse doing everything imaginable to save her—even training as a nurse. For instance, Fox and CNN gave air time and credibility to one Carla Iyer, who accused Michael of shouting “When is the bitch going to die?” and claimed hospital authorities doctored her nursing charts—preposterous charges with no substantiation. > They replaced reason with emotion, confused law with theology **and allowed politics and tabloidism to trump the privacy** this agonizing family tragedy deserved. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7305204/site/newsweek/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7305204/site/newsweek/) > [@](#): > > Arguments about Terri’s case centered on something described as a “culture of life.” It is an empty suit of a phrase, absent an individual to give it shape. **There is no culture of life**. There is the culture of your life, and the culture of mine. There is what each of us considers bearable, and what we will not bear. There are those of us who believe that **under certain conditions the cruelest thing you can do to people you love is to force them to live**. There are those of us who define living not by whether the heart beats and the lungs lift but whether the spirit is there, whether the music box plays. Do you have anything to offer other than some fuzzy Kwai Chang Kain new age blather? We’re all still waiting for your science/facts and theological references. The above are just a taste of what’s on the table from our side. Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/143 "2005-06-04T16:35:04Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Guess you didn’t read any of my posts. I read all your posts. You only wish to preach and ignore all of us who not only PROVE YOU TO BE WRONG, but provide substantial proof. I ask again: WHY ARE YOU ON THIS BOARD DEVOTED TO **ERADICATING IGNORANCE**? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/144 "2005-06-04T17:09:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Guess you didn’t read any of my posts. I’ve read every one of them inre this thread, Sunshine. And you, quite simply, are wallowing in your own ignorance. And that is not an attack. Simply an honest observation of truth. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/145 "2005-06-04T20:05:29Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I read all your posts. > > You only wish to preach and ignore all of us who not only PROVE YOU TO BE WRONG, but provide substantial proof. > > I ask again: WHY ARE YOU ON THIS BOARD DEVOTED TO **ERADICATING IGNORANCE**? Someone has to do it. Err what proof? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/146 "2005-06-04T20:08:13Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > I’ve read every one of them inre this thread, Sunshine. And you, quite simply, are wallowing in your own ignorance. > > And that is not an attack. Simply an honest observation of truth. The brainwashing is very good, you can count yourself intelligent only when you see your own faults. If you see none then you are not intelligent. I like that name Sunshine, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/147 "2005-06-04T20:09:56Z")
You are a massive waste of time and bandwidth. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/148 "2005-06-04T20:33:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > You are a massive waste of time and bandwidth. How right you are. [I’ve said almost the exact same thing before.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=311985) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/149 "2005-06-04T23:47:01Z")
OK. Everyone settle down. I would suggest that once any poster has demonstrated to his or her own satisfaction that another poster is impervious to facts or logic, the prudent action would be to simply not respond further to that other poster’s submissions rather than dragging the thread down to deteriorate into a(nother) name-calling contest. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/150 "2005-06-15T15:39:42Z")
[“This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons.”](http://edition.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html) -Tcat ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/151 "2005-06-15T15:50:15Z")
(waiting for someone to blame the massive loss of neurons on starvation or dehydration) ---
**Author:** ![MackoUr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MackoUr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MackoUr)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/152 "2005-06-15T15:59:35Z")
…or attack the coroner. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/153 "2005-06-15T16:04:00Z")
Of course that settles nothing. Facts didn’t get folks into the mindset that Schiavo shouldn’t have been allowed to die, facts will not get them out of that mindset. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/154 "2005-06-15T16:10:26Z")
> [@Tomcat](#): > > [“This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons.”](http://edition.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html) > > -Tcat No, it doesn’t. Brain size alone is not an indicator of mental capacity. For example, there is [The boy with half a brain](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/880478.stm). You need a lot more info than is contained in the CNN story to draw any conclusions. Now, I’m fully on the side of TS’s husband on this and agree that the right decision was made. But you’re jumping to conclusions if your statement is based on the scant evidence (and “scant” is generous) in the linked article. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/155 "2005-06-15T16:36:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Brain size alone is not an indicator of mental capacity. For example, there is [The boy with half a brain](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/880478.stm). You need a lot more info than is contained in the CNN story to draw any conclusions. > > Now, I’m fully on the side of TS’s husband on this and agree that the right decision was made. But you’re jumping to conclusions if your statement is based on the scant evidence (and “scant” is generous) in the linked article. The problem with holding this case up as an example is the false assumption that half a brain is half a brain, and it doesn’t matter which half remains. (I will ignore that the boy had significantly more than “half a brain”) TS had practically no cortex, which is very different than your example. The boy had one full cortical hemisphere that was capable of assuming the functions of the damaged one. TS did not have this; her ‘half a brain’ was primarily cerebellum and brain stem, capable of only very basic autonomic functions. I don’t see any valid comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/156 "2005-06-15T16:49:59Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Brain size alone is not an indicator of mental capacity. For example, there is [The boy with half a brain](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/880478.stm). You need a lot more info than is contained in the CNN story to draw any conclusions. > > Now, I’m fully on the side of TS’s husband on this and agree that the right decision was made. But you’re jumping to conclusions if your statement is based on the scant evidence (and “scant” is generous) in the linked article. Do you know more than the pathologists who performed this autopsy and wrote the conclusions? First of all, the statement was not about mental capacity but about whether the destroyed neurons could have been regenerated. The quote you’re disagreeing with says only that Terri Schiavo’s brain could not have been repaired by any treatment or therapy. Do you disagree with that? Because if you don’t, you have no beef. If you do, then what kind of treatment do you have in mind? Secondly, the brain is not just one indifferentiated mass of stuff. It matters which part is missing. The boy in your example had a cortex, Terri did not. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/157 "2005-06-15T16:53:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The brainwashing is very good, you can count yourself intelligent only when you see your own faults. If you see none then you are not intelligent. > > I like that name Sunshine, thank you. So, when are you going to apologize and recant your accusations, _sunshine_? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/158 "2005-06-15T16:53:25Z")
I meant UNdifferentiated. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/159 "2005-06-15T17:46:00Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The problem with holding this case up as an example is the false assumption that half a brain is half a brain, and it doesn’t matter which half remains. (I will ignore that the boy had significantly more than “half a brain”) TS had practically no cortex, which is very different than your example. The boy had one full cortical hemisphere that was capable of assuming the functions of the damaged one. TS did not have this; her ‘half a brain’ was primarily cerebellum and brain stem, capable of only very basic autonomic functions. I don’t see any valid comparison. Of course that’s true, but **none of that information was in the linked article**. People on both sides of this are eager to jump to conclusions when a piece of evidence fits their preconceived ideas. My main point was that the CNN article was so lacking in detail, that one could not reasonable draw conclusions from it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375/160 "2005-06-15T17:54:40Z")
Let me clarify that I’m not trying to draw equivalency between the two sides of this debate. As I said in my earlier post, I’m fully in agreement with TS’s husband and the course of action taken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terri-schiavo-now-that-we-have-all-calmed-down/305375.md?page=9)