# Terror in Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993 "2016-03-24T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/61 "2016-03-24T13:01:37Z")
This month’s Atlantic’s cover story emphasizes that Obama dislikes “free riders” and defines vital US interests somewhat more narrowly than some might. Doesn’t say he is unwilling to support/assist our allies, but questions the extent to which US ought to go it alone. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/62 "2016-03-24T13:16:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If that was so, then the problem would affect the US too. We don’t lack poor minorities. :rolleyes: I take it you did not bother reading the links (no surprise there). The economic problems are those which are facing young people regardless of background not specific to “poor minorities”. Young people in Europe have been and feel shafted. Dissatisfaction with the status quo is something which is widespread, not limited to one or any community. The near institutionalised discrimination and otherness are just a very rotten cherry on top. Integration in Europe is far less than the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/63 "2016-03-24T13:24:38Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > They are not hiring people with Non Christian names. The Jewish are also hit by this as multiple studies show as well. > > So yes, at a level it is this simple and the fact I am informed of this - and I of course live in the society - I do think that the valid opinion is the one that has is (1) not reducing the problem to MUSLIMS!!! (omg omg omg) and (2) recognizing the decades long data that shows long, consistent discrimination across multiple backgrounds against “outsider names.” Jewish, Muslim etc. (since it is the Jewish and the muslims who are large immigrant populations of course these stand out). > > People who ramble on about how somehow it might be the Muslims own fault, without any demonstrated knowledge of the situation, no I do not think they have useful opinions. Well - I do not know if I have “rambled”, but with a situation like this I find it usually too simple to put the blame squarely in one field. You disagree - fine. Still - I really want to be constructive here - the problem needs to be solved. We seem to be in agreement that it is not a good situation when, given the choice between a Michel and an Abbas, employers will rarely hire the latter. However, I still do not understand what you suggest to do about it. Assume there is a baker who has an opening for a new apprentice, and the baker decides in favor of Michel over Abbas. Should Abbas be able to sue? On what grounds? Even if the baker was motivated by xenophobia that would be incredibly hard to prove. If I believed that laws could be effective in overcoming the problem, I would support them. I just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/64 "2016-03-24T13:33:19Z")
When the only commonality in the observed discrimination effect is to have the “non French catholic name” then we can put a blame very squarely for the effect. and I do think that the anti-discrimination laws when the data is collected can be useful and effective. Not perfect of course, but useful and effective in the slow evolutionary change. The bakery, no that will not change easily. The French hiring system is not like yours and is already subject to state coordination and intervention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/65 "2016-03-24T13:46:27Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Not necessarily. Islamist suicide bombers frequently aren’t particularly religious - from the 9/11 bombers who drank beer and went to strip clubs, to the Paris attacker who owned and ran a bar. Or, they only become religious after they adhere to an Islamist movement, as a way of identifying with the movement. It’s early days yet, but initial reports suggest that the Brussels bombers were violent criminals long before they took up _political_ violence, or took any great interest in religion. It doesn’t matter so much how religious the operatives are. They aren’t the ones who plan and direct the actions. But even then, you’re just arguing that the operatives were somewhat hypocritical in their adherence to radical religious beliefs, not that they still aren’t fanatics. > [@](#): > > Europeans are used to the US doing most of the heavy lifting on military adventures but - with more, and more diverse, experience of terrorism - they are also much more aware than I think a lot of Americans are that military adventures are not a terribly effective way of dealing with the problem of terrorism. If the problem is terrorist bombings in European cities, it’s not a problem likely to be alleviated by a military campaign against Da’esh-held territory in Syria. And this doesn’t depend on who runs the military campaign. > > Which in a way means, I realise, I’m agreeing with you. No amount of American firepower can solve this problem for Europe. But, really, there is a limit to the extent to which _any_ American action, political or military, can address this problem, except to the extent that a co-ordinated approach from all the major Western countries is required to address the political conditions which give rise to the problem. I probably was less clear than I could have been about US involvement, but yeah, I agree that “more bombing by the West” is not necessarily the answer. I don’t see how this craziness is fixed except by the regional powers themselves. Kerry is running around like crazy trying drum up support in the region, but perhaps the Europeans should be be taking the lead here. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/66 "2016-03-24T13:59:33Z")
**John Mace** people might not be observant or even religious, but they are often very strongly culturally inclined. Lake of observance should not be construed as lack of interest in perceived insults and dangers. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/67 "2016-03-24T14:22:05Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > … I do think that the anti-discrimination laws when the data is collected can be useful and effective. Not perfect of course, but useful and effective in the slow evolutionary change. The bakery, no that will not change easily. OK but again, this “slow evolutionary change” focuses only on one side of the problem. Back to what I mentioned i.e. the other side of the problem. There have already been reports of students here in Brussels praising the attacks: > [@](#): > > **www.lesoir.be** > > Deux élèves de l’athénée royal Rive Gauche, à Laeken, ont été sanctionnés pour apologie du terrorisme suite aux attentats de Bruxelles. > Les faits litigieux se sont produits dans la cour de récréation. Selon le cabinet de la ministre de l’Education Joëlle Milquet, ceux-ci ont été rapportés à l’administration de l’enseignement mercredi, et communiqués aux services de police. Which of course reminds us of similar incidents in France last year. > [@](#): > > PARIS — Officials in France announced new measures on Thursday aimed at reinforcing secular values at French schools, after the terrorist attacks in and around Paris exposed serious cultural rifts between children in heavily immigrant communities and others in classrooms throughout the country. > > … > > The measures were devised to counter rampant “conspiracy theories” at French schools, the education minister, Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, said at a news conference Thursday. She said the issues had become apparent when some students refused to observe a moment of silence in schools after the attacks, which left 17 people dead. Since you like statistics, here are some, from the same article: > [@](#): > > The government’s objective, she said, is to “re-establish” the authority of teachers, many of whom said they were shocked and uncertain about how to react following \*\*about 200 incidents in French schools after the attacks. Some of the acts involved “glorifying terrorism,” \*\*Ms. Vallaud-Belkacem told the National Assembly in a speech earlier this month. > > Éric Bettancourt, a schoolteacher in Clichy-sous-Bois, a heavily immigrant suburb, told the France 2 television channel **that three quarters of his students had refused to observe the moment of silence.** “The first shocking words I heard were that the murders were justified,” Mr. Bettancourt said. [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/23/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-attack-leads-to-changes-in-french-schools.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/23/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-attack-leads-to-changes-in-french-schools.html?_r=0) In my view, when people hold such ideas, especially young people, we’re in for some serious trouble in the future. So, let’s fight ethnically-based discrimination when it comes to hiring people. It’s urgent, essential and ethical. But **Ramira** , how do we deal with the hateful attitude described in the article? Do you agree it exists? Do you agree that it’s a real problem? Isn’t it equally urgent, essential and ethical? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/68 "2016-03-24T14:32:47Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > **this is completely the rubbish.** > > FORCED? > > Most of these youths are not observant. > > It is not “forcing” integration, it is the question of addressing the long-documented gross discrimination in the job markets in the France and the Belgium against people with the “wrong names” - that is identifiably non christian names / non european names. > > This has been documented again and again over the decades, to no real action by the governments, gross racial / ethnic discrimination in the job market that a blind eye is turned to. and then the blame is put on those who suffer from being called “dirty arab” > > See [BBC NEWS | Europe | French Muslims face job discrimination](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399748.stm) > > but many solid statistical surveys done since the 1990s repeat again and again the lesson that to be identifiably non christian leads to active discrimination > [Stanford Report](http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/november/muslim-france-study-112210.html) > [http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/01/31/muslims-france-north-africa-senegal-discrimination/](http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/01/31/muslims-france-north-africa-senegal-discrimination/) > > But no, what is the solution? Oh it is the fault of them to have those names, they’re not integrating! Oh they wear the hidjab, we ban it… but is any action taken about identified job discrimination? No. The French state hides piously behind its slogans. My understanding is that in France, it’s often difficult to document discrimination in housing, the job market, or the numbers sent to prison due to France’s staunch “secularism”, which refuses to allow the government to keep such records. Is that correct and do you know if that’s true in Belgium as well? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/69 "2016-03-24T14:37:45Z")
how do you deal with it? Remove the roots. For thirty years there has not been any action on gross discrimination, only the usual francophone platitudes and philosophizing. For thirty years study after study has demonstrated this discrimination, of course such students feel rejected and reject. Otherwise there is not one PRACTICAL thing one does about mentalities in a immediate term I focus on the practical, otherwise I would be writing philosophically about the Mentalité of the white French and Belgians and their mentalité of rejection of the Others who do not happen to have names like Marie-Claude or Jean-Marie… The practical is to address the labor market dysfunctions and to address the obvious discrimination from the legal tools that are known already from the anglosaxons who have been more honest about racism and discrimination. Otherwise we are chanting philosophizing nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/70 "2016-03-24T14:55:09Z")
It has nothing to do with so-called “secularism” and everything to do with the French self-deception on their , [you can read this Brookings profile of 2001](http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2001/05/france-bleich). Not a thing has really changed, it is still enough to talk big in fancy philosophizing but what has actually gotten legal action? Banning hidjabs and other actions more aimed at putting down any difference, but action on the well (but not government) documented discrimination in employment…? Crickets is your American expression. And is it a wonder that the youth issued from the Maghrebine and the African immigration are alienated when the French state is more interested in its self-regarding theoretical discourse and the concrete actions seen are only to suppress and ban the cultural / religious expression considered “non French”? > [@](#): > > It is useful to contrast the French approach to fighting racism with those in the United States or in Britain. Relative to other countries, France has proven less interested in and adept at punishing discrimination in jobs, housing, and in provision of goods and services. Its has been criticized for relying on the criminal law to prosecute such offences, because the penal code requires a higher burden of proof than the civil code. Until recently, France’s anti-racist associations and the French state have been keener on fighting hate speech, as exemplified by the legislative ban on Holocaust denial, something that would seem extreme in Britain or North America. Conviction rates for discrimination are quite low (ranging in the single digits for most years since 1972 in a country of over sixty million inhabitants), and are surpassed by conviction rates for hate speech crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/71 "2016-03-24T15:02:37Z")
As a further context for the gross French hypocrisy, you can read this article too: [Can the French talk about race](http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/can-the-french-talk-about-race) > [@](#): > > France, with its revolutionary, republican spirit of egalité, likes to think of itself as a color-blind society, steadfastly refusing, for example, to measure race, ethnicity, or religion in its censuses. And yet France is, undeniably, a multicultural, multi-ethnic, and multiracial society, and has been at least since the nineteen-fifties, when large waves of immigrants began arriving from its former colonies. It has significant problems of discrimination, and of racial and economic segmentation, but limited tools to measure or correct them. The obvious answer—to many American scholars and to some French ones—is to begin to gather better data. > > “No one in France can say how many blacks live in this country,” Louis-Georges Tin, one of the founders of CRAN, the Conseil Représentatif des Associations Noires, or the Representative Council of Black Associations, wrote in 2008, when there was a big push to collect racial statistics. “A wide range of unofficial statistics circulate, and the numbers range between one million and six million. How approximate! It’s as if the U.S. Census Bureau said the United States has between a hundred and six hundred million inhabitants.” CRAN commissioned a private research firm to carry out a study, which estimated that three per cent of the French, or roughly 1.8 million people, are black. But this was based on a sample of about thirteen thousand people—a far cry from a national census. We can have sterile philosophizing about the “attitudes” in the suburbs, and complain about the immigrant mama who does not speak the French, but until the ugly fact of active, gross discrimination in the employment market (heavily subject to state intervention so we can not say the government is somehow shy about this, and seeking to let the free market work…) and of course address as well the issues in labor policy that go beyond race and are more general to favoring the Labor Elite of white men in the 50s+ (hidden behind the nice socialist theoretical rhetoric), as M. Draghi has highlighted, it remains sterile and pointless. the problem did not arise in a day. it will not be solved in a day. But the problem is one which would be a flesh wound if it were not for the festering gangrene of these issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/72 "2016-03-24T15:09:20Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Back to what I mentioned i.e. the other side of the problem. There have already been reports of students here in Brussels praising the attacks: of course this is exactly the Francophone problem. Moan on about “attitudes” and civisism, about republican “values” and suppress the speech that is diskliked, but do not one practical thing about the discrimination. No that only gets ‘condemnation’ and hand wringing, and lofty dialogues. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/73 "2016-03-24T15:09:42Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > how do you deal with it? Remove the roots. > > For thirty years there has not been any action on gross discrimination, only the usual francophone platitudes and philosophizing. > > For thirty years study after study has demonstrated this discrimination, of course such students feel rejected and reject. > > Otherwise there is not one PRACTICAL thing one does about mentalities in a immediate term > > I focus on the practical, otherwise I would be writing philosophically about the Mentalité of the white French and Belgians and their mentalité of rejection of the Others who do not happen to have names like Marie-Claude or Jean-Marie… > > The practical is to address the labor market dysfunctions and to address the obvious discrimination from the legal tools that are known already from the anglosaxons who have been more honest about racism and discrimination. > > Otherwise we are chanting philosophizing nonsense. OK, so the problem only comes from the French and Belgians. Totally one-sided. Not from the supremacist worldview that is spread in some Muslim families, which I _have heard_ and even _experienced_ more often than I care to remember. Not from the hateful, aggressive, conspirationist speeches that have been given in some mosques for decades all over the world - all well documented. Nope, no reponsability there at all. Well, thank you **Ramira**. Now I know what I ought to think. Not about the real world of course but about you. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/74 "2016-03-24T15:18:43Z")
Well you should use all the straw used in that huge Straw Man to mop up the bullshit, as I did not say the problem only comes from the Belgians. Not at all. I said > [@](#): > > Otherwise there is not one PRACTICAL thing one does about mentalities in a immediate term > > I focus on the practical, otherwise I would be writing philosophically about the Mentalité of the white French and Belgians and their mentalité of rejection of the Others who do not happen to have names like Marie-Claude or Jean-Marie… But the changing of the HATE discourse and Supremacist world views of either the National Fronts or the seperating radicals among whatever ethnic immigrant community you feel like blaming is not a practical objective - and of course the Francophone habit of focusing on the speech and suppressing it, well that has worked SO WELL… I focus on the key and single item that somehow the French and the Belgian governments can never quite ever get around to addressing, although they can get around to passing other laws. That is the labor market discrimination. Your constructing of the typical STRAW MAN about this I note well. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/75 "2016-03-24T15:41:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Well you should use all the straw used in that huge Straw Man to mop up the bullshit, as I did not say the problem only comes from the Belgians. > > Not at all. Not at all? Are you sure? Looking through your posts I find no statement attributing blame to anyone but the Belgians or the “Francophones”. You have provided a lot of text, so I may have overlooked something. Could you point me to a post where you acknowledge that the blame is shared? Otherwise the statement of \*\*Les Espaces Du Sommeil \*\*would be everything but a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/76 "2016-03-24T15:45:37Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Not at all? Are you sure? Looking through your posts I find no statement attributing blame to anyone but the Belgians or the “Francophones”. You have provided a lot of text, so I may have overlooked something. Could you point me to a post where you acknowledge that the blame is shared? Otherwise the statement of \*\*Les Espaces Du Sommeil \*\*would be everything but a strawman. I agree. I think **Les Espaces Du Sommeil** summed up **Ramira’s** posts quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/77 "2016-03-24T15:52:54Z")
Returning to this article, since it is unlikely to be read, I quote this: > [@](#): > > T… Marine Le Pen’s right-wing National Front got twenty-five per cent of the French vote in the 2014 European elections, more than any other party. In recent private surveys, seventy per cent of respondents agreed with the statement “There are too many immigrants.” > > Presumably, they are not talking about their current Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who was born in Barcelona and did not take French citizenship until he was twenty. Or the current mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, who was also born in Spain. The anti-immigrant sentiment is directed mainly at those from Africa and Asia, even if they are French citizens and their families have been in France for generations. **It is a constant source of annoyance—and sometimes offense—that French people of North African descent are frequently asked, “Where are you from?” when they often have parents born in France.** > > The demographer Hervé Le Bras recently republished a smart little book called “L’Invention de l’Immigré” showing that the term “immigrant” has radically changed its meaning over time. In the past, France had essentially two categories of people: foreigners and French citizens. If a person born outside France assumed citizenship, he or she passed from the first category to the second. **Once there was substantial immigration from Africa, however, people began increasingly to use the term “immigrant” even for native-born French citizens.** > > Many French people will tell you that these immigrants are different; they point to distinctions of religion, and of cultural and colonial history. It came as a shock that many second- and third-generation French rooted for the soccer clubs of, say, Algeria or Morocco rather than of France. Whether the alienation of many second- and third-generation immigrants is the result of a desire to preserve a distinct culture or of their isolation and discrimination within French society is a matter of intense debate. Various small studies have shown that job applicants with obviously North African or African names are far less likely to get called in for interviews than those with traditionally French names. A study funded by the Open Society Institute showed that black and North African youths were much more likely to be stopped by police in France’s equivalent of stop-and-frisk. These are points I have noted many times, but let us have some Americans say them in this text… The problem I have is the discourse, here, elsewhere immediately turns as it did here to pointing at the minority community and their blame for things. Oh and the terrible speech. and the attitudes. But decade after decade a very significant factor, the gross discrimination in the job market is refused to be treated, indeed it is even refused to collect the official data that will officially unmask treating the problem. Punishing some alienated little shit cretin of 14 years old for ‘supporting terrorism’ that the authorities are quite eager to do. Ban the hidjab for some mystical reason that is prevents an integration, oh yes we can pass such a law easily… and yes we will take actions to enforce it! Take any practical measures to address the severe employment discrimination against the “Immigrant” (that is the visible and the obvious minority, even though she was born in the country and sometimes even her grand parents born in the country, still she is an “Immigrant” and not a “real French” So what change in “Mentalities” is going to occur in this environment? What change in the mutual exlusion and the recriprocal supramcism is going to happen? We can talk of anectdotes (and wring our hands about the immigrant mama who does not speak the good French, although why this is remarkable when we know from the Americans experience it is in fact very typical) and - but there is the Elephant of a single clear factor that remains unaddressed, which is within the realm of the practical policy action, which the anglosaxon governments have even shown the legal tools for. No it is much better to talk about how the Immigrants (2nd/3rd generation) have bad attitudes. And ban hate speech, we can always ban hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/78 "2016-03-24T15:58:46Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Not at all? Are you sure? Looking through your posts I find no statement attributing blame to anyone but the Belgians or the “Francophones”. You have provided a lot of text, so I may have overlooked something. Could you point me to a post where you acknowledge that the blame is shared? Otherwise the statement of \*\*Les Espaces Du Sommeil \*\*would be everything but a strawman. I said many times there is not one single cause or blame and that I focused on the pragmatic action and issue not addressed yet. You people post all the time on the evils of the poor minorities and blame the terrorism immediately on the non-integration, I do not feel I need to shower my posts with repetition of what you already say. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/79 "2016-03-24T16:17:34Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I said many times there is not one single cause or blame and that I focused on the pragmatic action and issue not addressed yet. > > You people post all the time on the evils of the poor minorities and blame the terrorism immediately on the non-integration, I do not feel I need to shower my posts with repetition of what you already say. No, Ramira, I don’t post that “all the time”. In fact, I have not even posted it once. See: That \*is \*a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993/80 "2016-03-24T16:24:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I take it you did not bother reading the links (no surprise there). The economic problems are those which are facing young people regardless of background not specific to “poor minorities”. > > Young people in Europe have been and feel shafted. Dissatisfaction with the status quo is something which is widespread, not limited to one or any community. The near institutionalised discrimination and otherness are just a very rotten cherry on top. Integration in Europe is far less than the U.S. Not to mention the US does have such problems of disaffection amongst the young, and particularly among young minorities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terror-in-europe/749993.md?page=5)