# Terrorism A-Quadia and Iraq link? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658 "2005-07-08T21:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/61 "2005-07-12T05:21:38Z")
I’m glad this thread popped-up, finally have a chance to mention a book I’m reading. It’s called Ghost Wars by Steve Coll and recounts US (CIA) and other countries activities in the middle east up to 9/11. Although I was firmly in the camp that thought Iraq had no link to terrorism, I’m not so sure now. The book has a few mentions of Iraq Intelligence agents contacts with Al Qaeda and Osama, as well as some attempts by Iraq agents to hit American interests. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/62 "2005-07-12T05:35:26Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I’m glad this thread popped-up, finally have a chance to mention a book I’m reading. It’s called Ghost Wars by Steve Coll and recounts US (CIA) and other countries activities in the middle east up to 9/11. Weighing up this evidence against what we’ve already got, we end up with something like this: “Some book I just read which says a couple of things about Osama and Iraq” vs [the unequivocally negative findings of the 9/11 Commission on this topic as cited in the Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html) Use bugmenot is you have password trouble here ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/63 "2005-07-12T06:14:13Z")
I got two bits says that if Saddam had known about 9/11 in advance, had the facts and shit, he would have ratted out ObL in one second flat. On the QT, maybe, but shit like that he did NOT need. He _had_ to know he’d be the first person we’d blame, after whats-his-face, the tall loony looks like a starved Rasputin. Secular cynic tyrants and religiously fanatic revolutionarys do not hang, the cobra does not pal around with the mongoose. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/64 "2005-07-12T06:58:22Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Weighing up this evidence against what we’ve already got, we end up with something like this: > > “Some book I just read which says a couple of things about Osama and Iraq” vs [the unequivocally negative findings of the 9/11 Commission on this topic as cited in the Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html) > > Use bugmenot is you have password trouble here Well now, that’s not quite what they said. They said that their intelligence was poor, and as a result they didn’t have evidence. > [@](#): > > John Lehman, a 9/11 commissioner, spoke to The Weekly Standard at the time the report was released. “There may well be–and probably will be–additional intelligence coming in from interrogations and from analysis of captured records and so forth which will fill out the intelligence picture. This is not phrased as–nor meant to be–the definitive word on Iraqi Intelligence activities.” Interesting article by [Stephen Hayes](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp): > [@](#): > > “In August 1998, the detainee traveled to Pakistan with a member of Iraqi Intelligence for the purpose of blowing up the Pakistan, United States and British embassies with chemical mortars.” > > - _U.S. government “Summary of Evidence” for an Iraqi member of al Qaeda detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba_ > > … > > Indeed, more than two years after the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein was ousted, there is much we do not know about the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. We do know, however, that there was one. We know about this relationship not from Bush administration assertions but from internal Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) documents recovered in Iraq after the war–documents that have been authenticated by a U.S. intelligence community long hostile to the very idea that any such relationship exists. > > We know from these IIS documents that beginning in 1992 the former Iraqi regime regarded bin Laden as an Iraqi Intelligence asset. We know from IIS documents that the former Iraqi regime provided safe haven and financial support to an Iraqi who has admitted to mixing the chemicals for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. We know from IIS documents that Saddam Hussein agreed to Osama bin Laden’s request to broadcast anti-Saudi propaganda on Iraqi state-run television. We know from IIS documents that a “trusted confidante” of bin Laden stayed for more than two weeks at a posh Baghdad hotel as the guest of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. > > We have been told by Hudayfa Azzam, the son of bin Laden’s longtime mentor Abdullah Azzam, that Saddam Hussein welcomed young al Qaeda members “with open arms” before the war, that they “entered Iraq in large numbers, setting up an organization to confront the occupation,” and that the regime “strictly and directly” controlled their activities. We have been told by Jordan’s King Abdullah that his government knew Abu Musab al Zarqawi was in Iraq before the war and requested that the former Iraqi regime deport him. We have been told by Time magazine that confidential documents from Zarqawi’s group, recovered in recent raids, indicate other jihadists had joined him in Baghdad before the Hussein regime fell. We have been told by one of those jihadists that he was with Zarqawi in Baghdad before the war. We have been told by Ayad Allawi, former Iraqi prime minister and a longtime CIA source, that other Iraqi Intelligence documents indicate bin Laden’s top deputy was in Iraq for a jihadist conference in September 1999. > > All of this is new–information obtained since the fall of the Hussein regime. How much of this is accurate, I don’t know. But to categorically state that the 9/11 commission has disproved any links between Iraq and al-Qaida is simply false. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/65 "2005-07-12T12:13:43Z")
And there just has to be a pony somewhere near the Christmas tree, too. There’s something in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/66 "2005-07-12T14:11:40Z")
Thanks for that totally useless comment. Why not try actually refuting what the article says? Just pretend a document was found that showed that Bush lied, or that that Reagan administration propped up Saddam. You’d be all over those like a pit bull on crack. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/67 "2005-07-12T14:24:58Z")
Sigh … you know you can’t prove a negative, but the loyalist approach requires your saying so anyway, I suppose. The article shows absolutely nothing factual. The lack of any actual evidence for Iraq being behind AQ, and the massive amount of reason to believe the opposite, is what should be decisive. Why isn’t it? Why do you persist with offering such, in your words, “totally useless” posts? We deal in the world of facts here. Go get yourself some. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/68 "2005-07-12T14:36:57Z")
Who ever said Iraq was ‘behind’ al-Qaida? I love the way you spin the claim to ludicrous levels so that it’s easily ‘debunked’. No one believes Iraq is behind al-Qaida. The question is how much collaboration was there between the two? There’s a growing body of evidence that the collaboration was greater than originally thought. The article merely summarizes existing intelligence, dating back through the Clinton administration and including a lot of documentation that has come out of Iraq since the 9/11 commission issued its findings (which, by the way, did NOT say there was no connection between Iraq and al-Qaida. In fact, they said there WAS. What they said was that they had no intelligence that indicated that the contacts between them lead to an ‘operational collaboration’. I also quoted one of the 9/11 commissioners who was careful to point out that their lack of finding any positive evidence did not rule out the possibility of more evidence coming to light, and they admit their intelligence in this area was weak). And what do you mean, “The article shows nothing factual”? Did you read it? Here’s an example of a fact in the article: > [@](#): > > “Summary of Evidence” prepared by the U.S. government in November 2004. This unclassified document was released by the Pentagon in late March 2005. It details the case for designating an Iraqi member of al Qaeda, currently detained in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as an “enemy combatant.” > > From the indictment: > \* > > 1. From 1987 to 1989, the detainee served as an infantryman in the Iraqi Army and received training on the mortar and rocket propelled grenades. > 2. A Taliban recruiter in Baghdad convinced the detainee to travel to Afghanistan to join the Taliban in 1994. > 3. The detainee admitted he was a member of the Taliban. > 4. The detainee pledged allegiance to the supreme leader of the Taliban to help them take over all of Afghanistan. > 5. The Taliban issued the detainee a Kalishnikov rifle in November 2000. > 6. The detainee worked in a Taliban ammo and arms storage arsenal in Mazar-Es-Sharif organizing weapons and ammunition. > 7. The detainee willingly associated with al Qaida members. > 8. The detainee was a member of al Qaida. > 9. An assistant to Usama Bin Ladin paid the detainee on three separate occasions between 1995 and 1997. > 10. The detainee stayed at the al Farouq camp in Darwanta, Afghanistan, where he received 1,000 Rupees to continue his travels. > 11. From 1997 to 1998, the detainee acted as a trusted agent for Usama Bin Ladin, executing three separate reconnaissance missions for the al Qaeda leader in Oman, Iraq, and Afghanistan. > 12. **In August 1998, the detainee traveled to Pakistan with a member of Iraqi Intelligence for the purpose of blowing up the Pakistan, United States and British embassies with chemical mortars.** > 13. Detainee was arrested by Pakistani authorities in Khudzar, Pakistan, in July 2002. > > - An al-Qaida member, who used to be an Iraqi soldier, joining al-Qaida and then later travelling to Pakistan with a member of Iraqi Intelligence? That’s worth nothing more than a yawn and a curt dismissal from you? There’s plenty more like that in the article. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/69 "2005-07-12T14:40:29Z")
What the hell is a “Chemical Mortar?” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/70 "2005-07-12T14:46:58Z")
Here’s the original for anyone interested in this particular hijack of the thread about whether or not current aQ activity in Iraq indicates that aQ and Hussein were working together or were likely to work together on attacks against the US: [Combatant Staus Review Board](http://wid.ap.org/050329detainees.pdf).pdf Here’s the entirety of the implication of a Hussein-bin Laden linkage in question: “In August 1998, the detainee traveled to Pakistan with a member of Iraqi Intelligence for the purpose of blowing up the Pakistan, United States and British embassies with chemical mortars.” That’s it. The rest details that the Taliban and aQ had a member who was an Iraqi and that this fella worked for UbL on occasion. Failure to note specific idiosycracies of wording has led me to make mistakes before. Given the unspecific phrasing, the single sentence could mean a number of things. I think I’ll reserve judgment until I find out some more about the affair. Hopefully more will be revealed. Since this could potentially justify the part of the case for the invasion of Iraq that Wolfowitz characterized as the reason [“about which there’s the most disagreement within the bureaucracy,”](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/757wzfan.asp?pg=2) (the strong reason being the presence of WMD) the wait to could be a very short one. I’m sure there’re a number of people and groups who’ll be eager to have this come to light. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/71 "2005-07-12T16:19:52Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > What the hell is a “Chemical Mortar?” Indeed. And where does one find the “Pakistan embassy” in Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/72 "2005-07-12T16:47:11Z")
We should take a moment to commend the _Weekly Standard_ for its bold audacity in challenging the stranglehold of the liberal media with this bombshell of an article. But what accounts for the odd silence of the Bushivik administration, given this irrefutable and rock-solid affirmation of its _cassus belli_? It can only be dignified modesty, an unwillingness to trumpet such stunning revelations to the embarassment of its poltical enemies. Yes, that must be it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/73 "2005-07-12T17:05:06Z")
Maybe Bush is waiting for the _Weekly Reader_ version. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/74 "2005-07-12T17:35:31Z")
[He’d have to wait for the editor to complete his sentence](http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2005/07/12/editor_of_youth_publishing_group_arrested_on_sex_charges/) > [@](#): > > An editor for the publishing company that puts out the venerable Weekly Reader newspaper for schoolchildren was arrested for allegedly soliciting sex from a minor on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/75 "2005-07-12T17:43:41Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Indeed. And where does one find the “Pakistan embassy” in Pakistan? Well, in Pakistan, of course. It conducts the ordinary sort of embassy business. For instance, issuing visas for Pakistani citizens to travel within Pakistan, that sort of thing. The export of nuclear weapons technology and fissile materials is handled by another agency altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/76 "2005-07-12T18:37:44Z")
> [@](#): > > It conducts the ordinary sort of embassy business. For instance, issuing visas for Pakistani citizens to travel within Pakistan, that sort of thing. Business has been falling off though. A lot of Pakistanis have realized it’s better if they don’t get a visa to travel in Pakistan. That way they get picked up for being in Pakistan without a visa and deported back to Pakistan, thereby saving on bus fare. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/77 "2005-07-12T19:28:08Z")
Please keep in mind that an Iraqi link to terrorism does not necessarily mean only a link to aQ. In addition, the world is a complex place. It’s entirely possible that Iraq supported terrorism in various ways to many different degrees. At the same time, the amount of terrorist activities Iraq may have been involved in could have been significantly less than that of the Islamic terrorists. **Atticus Finch** , if you read the book you will see that it is well documented and maybe, just maybe, has some valuable information. My point was not that it proves anything (nor is the books intent to even discuss Iraq), but that maybe my personal black and white view of the Iraq terrorism link that I previously held was possibly too simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/78 "2005-07-12T19:29:22Z")
Plus, they avoid the risk of being killed by a chemical mortar. Hey, is it true that the Pakistani embassy in Pakistan is really considered to be the sovereign territory of Pakistan? And are the Pakistani diplomats all have diplomatic immunity from Pakistani law? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/79 "2005-07-12T19:37:39Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > What the hell is a “Chemical Mortar?” That question actually has an answer. A chemical mortar is a mortar that’s capable of firing incendiary, smoke or gas shells in addition to high explosive shells. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658/80 "2005-07-12T19:48:19Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > …Hey, is it true that the Pakistani embassy in Pakistan is really considered to be the sovereign territory of Pakistan? And are the Pakistani diplomats all have diplomatic immunity from Pakistani law? Our true-blue ally, Pakistan, has no peer amongst military dictatorships when it comes to fostering democratic institutions and the rule of law. Pursuant to this laudable goal, Pakistan’s law code is sublimely simple. Rule1: Do not piss off Musharaff. Rule 2: There is _noooooo_ Rule 2. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorism-a-quadia-and-iraq-link/311658.md?page=5)