# Terrorist attack between now and November. Is McCain or Obama hurt (or helped) more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884 "2008-06-05T15:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Plexi\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f6c823/32.png) [@Plexi\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plexi_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/61 "2008-06-05T22:17:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It helps Obama. It proves that the Republicans can’t protect us. [/QUOTE] Right. Cause they still control congress and all. ---
**Author:** ![Plexi\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f6c823/32.png) [@Plexi\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plexi_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/62 "2008-06-05T23:10:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Incidentally, the wiki piece makes it sound like McCain’s plane wasn’t even in the air. It caught on fire while still on the flight deck of the aircraft carrier and he just jumped off the nose onto the deck. BFD. What did he fall, about 3 feet? [/QUOTE] I think you might have also missed this little bit: > [@](#): > > He went to help another pilot trying to escape the fire when the first bomb exploded; McCain was thrown backwards ten feet (three meters)[70] and struck in the legs and chest by fragments In general, I think you’d benefit from reading this:: > **[Early life and military career of John McCain | Prisoner of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war)** > > On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane strike force against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi that previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage. Arriving just before noon, McCain dove from 9,000 to 4,000 feet on his approach; as he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.\[ ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/63 "2008-06-05T23:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=Plexi Guy] I think you might have also missed this little bit: [/QUOTE] So, basically, if we expect terrorists to invade the White House, McCain’s the guy who will heroically defend the Press Secretary. I thought that was what the Secret Service, or maybe the military, were for. Silly me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/64 "2008-06-05T23:46:47Z")
[QUOTE=Plexi Guy] I think you might have also missed this little bit: In general, I think you’d benefit from reading this:: > **[Early life and military career of John McCain | Prisoner of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war)** > > On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane strike force against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi that previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage. Arriving just before noon, McCain dove from 9,000 to 4,000 feet on his approach; as he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.\[ [/QUOTE] So what. He got blown up. Who gives a shit? How does that make him courageous. I get no benefit from your link. Sorry. I’m quite familiar with McCain’s POW story. We can infer nothing from it regarding his ability to respond to crisis. It just makes his support for the continued occupation of Iraq (up to 100 years, he says) and his flip flop on torture all the more disgusting and indefensible. I didn’t always feel this way about McCain. He used to be a Republican I liked, but now he’s sold out every quality I used to admire. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/65 "2008-06-05T23:55:52Z")
The ability to respond decisively, accurately, and heroically to a unforeseen and highly dangerous situation is the ability to respond to crisis. McCain did so. I’m going to guess you’ve never been in a serious wreck or near an explosion, Dio. Trust me. The sudden appearance of pressure and roaring flames around you can _really_ fuck with your sense of space and time. (Edit: Yes, I have been. Not to mention the time I was missed by lightning by about two feet. I think that must be what being shelled is like. World exploded around me.) Going over the nose of > **[Global Aircraft -- A-4 Skyhawk](http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/a-4_skyhawk.pl)** > > Information and pictures on the aircraft, A-4 Skyhawk. this plane is _not_ an obvious task when you’re in the cockpit, shaken around, and everything’s on fire. Heroically, because I know Dio’s going to say he doesn’t see anything heroic about it: Going back to help someone _else_ out is heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/66 "2008-06-06T00:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] The ability to respond decisively, accurately, and heroically to a unforeseen and highly dangerous situation is the ability to respond to crisis. [/quote] Jumping out of the way of a fire is “heroic?” You have a very generous definition of heroic. > [@](#): > > Going over the nose of > [Global Aircraft -- A-4 Skyhawk](http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/a-4_skyhawk.pl) > this plane is _not_ an obvious task when you’re in the cockpit, shaken around, and everything’s on fire. I beg to differ. It’s the blindingly obvious thing to run _away from the flames_. I’m not buying what you’re selling. It is not an extraordinary feat of heroism to jump away from some flames. Oooh, he had the presence of mind to jump two feet. How incredible. > [@](#): > > Heroically, because I know Dio’s going to say he doesn’t see anything heroic about it: Going back to help someone _else_ out is heroic. It’s a natural instinct to try to go back and help. What kind of a douchebag _wouldn’t_ do it? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/67 "2008-06-06T00:09:55Z")
I find it odd how often I see the term heroism associated with self preservation. If people perform extraordinary feats to survive, they’ll sometimes be labelled heroes, which makes no sense to me since they’re just helping themselves. They might be remarkable or ballsy, but heroic to me implies self sacrifice. That said - if he went back onto a burning fight deck full of explosives that were getting ready to cook off to help rescue other people, that’s heroic. You ask “What kind of douchebag wouldn’t do it?” - would you? You’ve said, IIRC, you wouldn’t expose yourself to risk except to preserve your immediate family. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/68 "2008-06-06T00:15:39Z")
I would go back. I’m full of shit about how much of a coward I am. I would not be able to stand around and watch. ETA, it was admirable for McCaon to go back, and more heroic than just jumping away from some flames, but I don’t know that it was _extraordinary_. I really do think most people instinctively respond that way. People who don’t do it are the exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/69 "2008-06-06T00:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] I find it odd how often I see the term heroism associated with self preservation. If people perform extraordinary feats to survive, they’ll sometimes be labelled heroes, which makes no sense to me since they’re just helping themselves. They might be remarkable or ballsy, but heroic to me implies self sacrifice. That said - if he went back onto a burning fight deck full of explosives that were getting ready to cook off to help rescue other people, that’s heroic. You ask “What kind of douchebag wouldn’t do it?” - would you? You’ve said, IIRC, you wouldn’t expose yourself to risk except to preserve your immediate family. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’ve often thought the same thing. People are labelled heroic for so many stupid reasons. Their heroic battle against cancer. As though people generally just lay down and die. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/70 "2008-06-06T00:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Yeah, I’ve often thought the same thing. People are labelled heroic for so many stupid reasons. Their heroic battle against cancer. As though people generally just lay down and die. [/QUOTE] Amen to that. And then if they get better, everybody says “they beat it,” as if it was some kind of remarkable achievement of personal character instead of giving credit to doctors and modern medicine where it belongs. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/71 "2008-06-06T00:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You have to stop confusing the way you would react with the way most Americans would react. It helps McCain, mostly. And not just because it’s a Republican/Democrat thing. It’s an experience/less experience thing, too. [/QUOTE] I think it’s even more fundamental than that. It’s a Paternalistic thing. People will be going for the one who reminds them the most of a grizzled old cowboy Father who can protect them from the invisible monsters. I think Obama will suddenly look like an effete academic. It of course depends upon the situation and the magnitude. A 9/11 style attack will help McCain. A smaller one will be dependent upon what the candidates say in the immediate aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/72 "2008-06-06T00:25:50Z")
I think they’ll both mkae the right noises, mouth the right platitudes and then hope that perception favors them. Unfortunately I think McCain will be favored by that perception and Obama will be running a sudden deficit and have to make up for it subsequently. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/73 "2008-06-06T01:47:57Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] How does that make him courageous. [/QUOTE] You want courage, **Dio**? Your wish is my command (this time, anyway). 😉 **From Wiki:** "John McCain’s capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his twenty-third bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[33][34] McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned, when he parachuted into Trúc Bạch Lake in Hanoi.[33] After he regained consciousness, a crowd attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him;[33] he was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the “Hanoi Hilton”.[34] Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information.[36] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[36] and announce his capture. His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of The New York Times[37] and The Washington Post.[38] McCain spent six weeks in the Hoa Loa hospital while receiving marginal care.[33] Now having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[33] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[39] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[40] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[41] In mid-1968, McCain’s father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[42] The North Vietnamese wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[43] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[42] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[33] In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] McCain was subjected to repeated beatings and rope bindings, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[44] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda “confession”.[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,[45] but as he would later write, “I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”[46] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[47] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[48] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract “confessions” and propaganda statements, with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.[49] McCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[50] From late 1969 on, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[51] while McCain continued to be an active resister against the camp authorities.[52] McCain and other prisoners cheered the B-52-led U.S. “Christmas Bombing” campaign of December 1972 as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[46][53] That, my friend, is courage…plus strength of characer, discipline, mental toughness, and a willingess to put others’ welfare above his own, even if it means more beatings and torture as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/74 "2008-06-06T02:02:27Z")
I don’t think it’s much of a trick to get captured and tortured. By that logic, everyone in Gitmo is a hero. The one thing I give him credit for is staying when he could have left. He showed loyalty and toughness. The question, though, was how does he respond to crisis. His POW experience does not answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/75 "2008-06-06T02:15:33Z")
Dio, it’s not always apparent which way is _away_ from the flames. Especially when they’re all around you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/76 "2008-06-06T02:22:25Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t think it’s much of a trick to get captured and tortured. By that logic, everyone in Gitmo is a hero. [/quote] No, it isn’t much of a trick to get captured and tortured. It is quite a trick to react to that captivity and torture in the way that he did. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The one thing I give him credit for is staying when he could have left. He showed loyalty and toughness. Indeed. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The question, though, was how does he respond to crisis. No, actually that was another question. Your question, which I included in my post above, went to McCain’s courage. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > His POW experience does not answer that question. I think most anyone finding themselves in the position he was in would think themselves to be in quite a serious crisis situation. He handled his crisis with strength, courage, (and as you yourself just said) loyalty and toughness. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/77 "2008-06-06T02:36:02Z")
> [@](#): > > How is “The Democrats won’t protect you.” not a partisan message? > > The whole, entire meme that the Republicans are better on national security is pure, partisan hokum. Hokum perhaps. But it’s perceived as being true. In elections, what people believe is more important than what’s actually true. McCain wouldn’t have to explicitly say anything bad about the Democrats in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. He could just sit back and rely on existing preconceptions to increase support for him. ---
**Author:** ![Plexi\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f6c823/32.png) [@Plexi\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plexi_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/78 "2008-06-06T14:58:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] So what. He got blown up. Who gives a shit? How does that make him courageous. [/QUOTE] Maybe you should just admit that you personally dislike the guy, and will regardless of how courageous, brave, etc, he is, rather than just trying to hand wave off all the evidence to the contrary. There was a huge friggin’ fire on a wooden deck. There was friggin’ jet fuel, napalm, and friggin’ bombs everywhere. McCain **went back into** it to help others! And then got blown up. He would not have been blown up unless he went to help. Risking dire physical consequences in order to help others is what any sane person would think of as bravery or courage. You can not vote for the guy. You don’t have to like him personally, politically, visually, sexually, whatever. But any argument against his bravery or mental toughness is just farcical. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/79 "2008-06-06T15:16:23Z")
[QUOTE=Plexi Guy] Maybe you should just admit that you personally dislike the guy, and will regardless of how courageous, brave, etc, he is, rather than just trying to hand wave off all the evidence to the contrary. There was a huge friggin’ fire on a wooden deck. There was friggin’ jet fuel, napalm, and friggin’ bombs everywhere. McCain **went back into** it to help others! And then got blown up. He would not have been blown up unless he went to help. Risking dire physical consequences in order to help others is what any sane person would think of as bravery or courage. You can not vote for the guy. You don’t have to like him personally, politically, visually, sexually, whatever. But any argument against his bravery or mental toughness is just farcical. [/QUOTE] I don’t dislike the guy. Actually, I think it’s more accurate to say that I didn’t _always_ dislike him. I also haven’t argued against his mental toughness or his bravery. I said it was admirable for him to go back into the fire and try to help. I just don’t think the incident tells us anything about how he would respond to a crisis as President. We know he has enough sense to jump off a burning object. That’s great. We know he has the normal decency to try to help others in a fire. Cool. We know he showed extraordinary loyalty and character when he refused to be released from Hanoi without his fellow prisoners. Very good. We can’t infer anything from that about how would respond to a national crisis, but, at least once in his life, he had character. Too bad he’s sold it all out now. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884/80 "2008-06-06T15:37:16Z")
I don’t understand this hijack at all. McCain is a badass. We all know that. He’s like Bill Pullman from Indepedence Day or Harrison Ford from Air Force One _for real_. What does any of that have to do with decisions he’d make as POTUS from behind a desk in the Oval Office? As for who would be hurt more by an attack, it depends entirely on how close to the election it is. If it’s any more than a week, Obama could easily spin it as “The Republicans can’t protect us” but make it sounds less partisan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-attack-between-now-and-november-is-mccain-or-obama-hurt-or-helped-more/451884.md?page=5)