# Terrorist leader calls for jihad against US in order to elect Democrats **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368 "2003-08-06T17:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/101 "2003-08-07T07:11:27Z")
a strawman, he says. **Collounsbury** does his usual anti- **december** raving, now from afar, at this point the two names are linked more often than not and this is seriously abnormal, even for the internet. **L\_C** delivers it here (not a shocker) and assorted apologists come out saying oh no, there’s no implied meaning behind the term “genocide”, he only meant that **december** would likely be a Nazi supporter, for fuck’s sake. I don’t feel obliged to support every villification of Democratic candidates, but my god do these threads ever get icky. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/102 "2003-08-07T07:22:10Z")
Howard Dean, for one, wants US troops to stay in Iraq for longer than two years. From [Dean’s official site](http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5364&news_iv_ctrl=1441). > [@](#): > > Governor Howard Dean, M.D. called for United Nations cooperation in helping rebuild Iraq. > > “We knew from the outset we could win this war without much help from others. But we cannot win the peace by continuing to go it alone,” Governor Dean said. “Our goal should be what the Administration has promised-an Iraq that is stable, self-sufficient, whole and free. Our strategy to achieve that goal should be based on a partnership with three sides-U.S., international and Iraqi-and a program that begins with seven basic points.” > > Those points are: > -A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament. > -Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council. > -The U.N.'s Oil for Food program should be transformed into an Oil for Recovery program, to pay part of the costs of reconstruction and transition. > -The U.S. should convene an international donor’s conference to help finance the financial burden of paying for Iraq’s recovery. > -Women should participate in every aspect of the decision-making process. > -A means should be established to prosecute crimes committed against the Iraqi people by individuals associated with Saddam Hussein’s regime. > **-A democratic transition will take between 18 to 24 months, although troops should expect to be in Iraq for a longer period.** > -“We must hold the Administration to its promises before the war, and create a world after the war that is safer, more democratic, and more united in winning the larger struggle against terrorism and the forces that breed it,” Governor Dean said. > > “That is, after all, now much more than a national security objective,” he added. “It is a declaration of national purpose, written in the blood of our troops, and of the innocent on all sides who have perished.” Apparently, voting Dean in will _not_ remove troops from Iraq. I seem to recall other Dem candidates saying similar things. Either the Hizbollah guy is gravely mistaken on the effect that a new administration will have on American involvement, or he isn’t talking about electing Democrats. Either way, your argument falls apart, **december**. A Democratic president would have no intention of pulling out of Iraq and not “winning the peace.” Thus, forcing Bush out of office will have no effect upon the continued American presence. Thus, increacing attacks on American troops to force Bush out of office is folly, if its aim is to eventually remove said troops. Oh, sorry. This is in the Pit now. I guess the civil discussion cannot be salvaged. Darn. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/103 "2003-08-07T07:51:42Z")
But who should we believe about what Dean will do? Himself? Or an unwarranted inference from a statement by a terrorist? It’s a toughie. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/104 "2003-08-07T08:03:16Z")
I don’t know. But say I’m an old Middle Eastern terrorist group leader and I see this: > [@](#): > > "It is time for the United States to get out of Iraq. > > "But this Administration, whose entry strategy was based on falsehood, with no exit strategy, has trapped our troops in Iraq and exposed them to greater harm. The total number of American casualties is now 232. Here is what needs to be done diplomatically: The United Nations must be brought in. Negotiations for an exit must begin now. An exit agreement with the United Nations must involve the US letting go of the contracting process (Halliburton, Brown and Root, etc). > > "The UN must also take over management, accounting and distribution to the Iraqi people of Iraq’s oil profits. Additionally, a transition from UN control to self- determined governing structure by and for the Iraqi people must be planned. Finally the Administration, which unwisely ordered the bombing, must fund the reconstruction > > “It was wrong to go into Iraq. It is wrong to stay in Iraq. US out. UN in. Let’s support our troops by bringing them home.” …I might be inspired. That was Kucinich, who calls himself “leader of the opposition to the Iraq war in the House”, and probably “King Dennis” in private. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/105 "2003-08-07T09:53:20Z")
The mistake here is the old one - “terrorists say A, therefore we must do B”. Bullshit. If a load of people peacefully and democratically oppose government policy A and support policy B instead, and then some bunch of fucktards decide to start blowing things up in support of policy B, it _should not negate the validity of policy B_. The conflation of terrorists and the people the terrorists are seeking to “assist” is a trite and woeful habit of certain posters on this board, and indicative of very narrow little minds. P.S. It is nice to see a few mini-mes coming out of the woodwork in support of the OP. Y’all are so _cute_! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/106 "2003-08-07T10:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*I don’t know. But say I’m an old Middle Eastern terrorist group leader and I see this: [snip] > …I might be inspired. \*\* Or, if you’re a terrorist with an IQ greater than your shoe size, you might just note the surge in republican popularity following September 11th. You might wonder if people would see a terrorist attack as a good reason to support the party that’s claimed there was no need for preemptive military action in Iraq. Frankly, your claim is somewhat ridiculous, almost as much so as the OP. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/107 "2003-08-07T10:20:40Z")
So., opposition to war in Iraq = Wanting to be a monarch. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/108 "2003-08-07T10:37:25Z")
I normally don’t come here, in the pit, but I just had to follow this thread in. If not just to call another bullshit spin. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > **London\_Calling** , it’s strange to see **Collounsbury’s** comments from beyond the grave, as it were. I once told him that I didn’t think he was an anti-semite. But, now you have chosen to quote him from another source: “I believe december is the kind of person who makes genocide possible.” Wow! > > It’s one thing to viciously insult me even wishing for my death. That’s probably the best you can do, since you lack sound arguments. But, it’s another thing to viciously insult me by apparently alluding to my Jewish heritage, and even hinting that the Holocaust might have had some justification. I don’t want to believe you guys are anti-semites, but you’re giving a good imitation. Nice try at turning things around but I know you can read and I know that you know what this is about. Not that _they_ are anti-semites for attacking you. It is **you** who is accused of displaying all the hallmarks of a Nazi. Can you write even one sentence without twisting things? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/109 "2003-08-07T10:47:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > **Nice try at turning things around but I know you can read and I know that you know what this is about. Not that _they_ are anti-semites for attacking you. It is you who is accused of displaying all the hallmarks of a Nazi.** Sorry, but I really wish L\_C had not posted that statement at all. First it’s a very strong accusation, one which December has every right to defend himself against. This is going to lead to a hijacking of this thread, and give December an out for the stupidity of his OP. Secondly, I really do think that this was a very ill-advised post for L\_C to make. What principle is there in making an attack on one poster based on the cutting and pasting of a live journal from a banned poster. There can be no direct debate between the two, so all that can happen is a breakdown of heated argument between third parties. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/110 "2003-08-07T10:54:48Z")
Well, if his best defence is: ‘Eeek, you’re anti-semites…!!!’ Please… ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/111 "2003-08-07T11:37:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > **Is it possible that the terrorists are actually in league with Bush?** All your Bush are belong to us? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/112 "2003-08-07T11:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\*Well, if his best defence is: ‘Eeek, you’re anti-semites…!!!’ > > Please… \*\* Yeah, cuz anti-Semitism is so rare. Wait… Actually, it’s one recurring theme from ancient to modern history. Why would **december** even suggest such a thing? It’s not like anyone ever murdered the Jews by the millions. Wait, oh yeah, it was the Europeans. Nor did the holocaust sprung out of the German mind. I’m talking about two thousand years of systematic European anti-Semitism. Of course, things are different now. Wait… ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/113 "2003-08-07T12:12:37Z")
But I was always under the impression that **december** hasn’t traveled outside the good old U.S. of A. and didn’t pay attention in history class. How else can you explain his posts? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/114 "2003-08-07T12:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Actually, it’s one recurring theme from ancient to modern history. Why would **december** even suggest such a thing? It’s not like anyone ever murdered the Jews by the millions. Wait, oh yeah, it was the Europeans. Nor did the holocaust sprung out of the German mind. I’m talking about two thousand years of systematic European anti-Semitism. \*\* Truly, you are an arsehole of epic proportions. “it was the Europeans”. yep, it was us. We all did it. I confess, everyone of us sided with the Nazis, and supported them. Not one of us fought against them, or were your allies in that war. Nah, just a nice black and white incident you can try to use as a fucking idiotic point. What a contemptible, wankish little cunt you are. It would be too fucking easy to throw in obvious atrocities in american history straight back at you, or too easy to link to anti-semitical groups in the US. But to be honest that would be almost as pathetic as your own statement. It would be equally easy to link to cites of the various efforts by Europeans to fight anti-semitism, but you’re not worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/115 "2003-08-07T12:44:41Z")
**december** using the deaths of American servicemen to advance your right wing extremeist beliefs is beyond comprehension and truly reprehensible. You are a sick, stupid piece of shit. And seeing you actively posted misrepresented positions of those whose politics differ from yours (which seems to be 90% of the country thank god) to do so, you are a lying sack of shit too. Hopefully some day you will get enough of a clue to be ashamed of yourself. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/116 "2003-08-07T13:12:19Z")
[Administrator Hat ON] London\_Calling, we ban people for a reason, so that they can no longer post on this messageboard…even by proxy. So don’t serve as a conduit for Collounsbury to continue to post here. [Administrator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/117 "2003-08-07T13:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*He didn’t say your words justified killing Jews. He said that, if you’d been a gentile in Nazi Germany, you’d have been the sort of person who’d keep his head down and not question authority while said authority was murdering millions of innocent people. \*\* For all I know you’re right. I thought he was comparing me to other Jews, since I’m Jewish. Too bad we can’t ask **Collounsbury**. **jjimm** , you came close to agreeing with the OP. You wrote > [@](#): > > The mistake here is the old one - “terrorists say A, therefore we must do B”. > > Bullshit. > > If a load of people peacefully and democratically oppose government policy A and support policy B instead, and then some bunch of fucktards decide to start blowing things up in support of policy B, it should not negate the validity of policy B. I agree with that. Let’s go two steps farther: 1. If this bunch of fucktards were _encourged_ in their fucktardism by the peaceful protests, that still wouldn’t negate the policy favored by the protestors. 2. OTOH it would be appropriate to discuss the fact that the peaceful protests were encouraging fucktardism and to take that fact into account in deciding what to do. **elf6c** , you says that using the deaths of American servicemen for political purposes. Two responses: 1. Bush’s adversaries have made a big fuss about the killings of American soldiers. Some have blamed Bush’s policies. i think that’s fiar debating. This is an important issue. 2. Sheik Nasrallah publicly called for attacks on America as a way to hurt Bush and the Republicans. That’s a fact. If you find that fact sick, stupid, reprehensible, etc., too bad. When you attack people who bring that unpleasant fact to your attention, that’s an effort to preserve groupthink. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/118 "2003-08-07T14:08:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I thought he was comparing me to other Jews, since I’m Jewish.** Really? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3705298&highlight=atheist#post3705298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3705298&highlight=atheist#post3705298) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december \* > \*\* I’ve been an atheist all my life._\* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/119 "2003-08-07T14:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > there’s no implied meaning behind the term “genocide”, he only meant that december would likely be a Nazi supporter, for fuck’s sake. **Tee** , I’d hate to think that you are becoming as dishonest as **december**. Genocide was not _implied_, it was _stated_. The Holocaust was explicitly mentioned. However, nothing that was said excused or justified that event, which is **december** ’s lie. Certainly **december** was personally attacked, but _not_ by his claims of > [@](#): > > even hinting that the Holocaust might have had some justification. I don’t want to believe you guys are anti-semites, but you’re giving a good imitation. and > [@](#): > > they may be implying that some other Jews were justifiably slaughtered as well. Those are simply inventions that **december** created rather than either ignore or address what was actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368/120 "2003-08-07T14:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*2. Sheik Nasrallah publicly called for attacks on America as a way to hurt Bush and the Republicans. That’s a fact. If you find that fact sick, stupid, reprehensible, etc., too bad. When you attack people who bring that unpleasant fact to your attention, that’s an effort to preserve groupthink. \*\* Bullshit. Were you happy about Clinton’s impeachment? Let’s say that Aryan Nations was also happy about Clinton’s impeachment, and called for him to be impeached so as to install a White Supremacist Republican in office. Would Aryan Nation’s support of the impeachment have even the slightest eensiest bearing on your support of the impeachment? You’re not being attacked for bringing this lunatic theocrat to our attention. You’re being attacked for insinuating that anti-war folks are somehow responsible for this lunatic theocrat’s actions. That’s a vile and disgusting accusation. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-leader-calls-for-jihad-against-us-in-order-to-elect-democrats/193368.md?page=7)