# Terrorist murders in N.Ireland Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971 "2009-03-10T16:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/21 "2009-03-11T17:11:13Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > One thing that would reconcile me with a united Ireland is seeing main stream Irish parties crush the Sinners come election time. Not going to happen, at least for a long time yet. SF have made a nice place for themselves in the RoI as a valid left wing alternative. Even removing the “Tiocfaidh ár lá” boys there is a lot of support for them. They have a very strong and impressive local visibility in working class areas and work very hard on a local level to keep that strong. They get a huge amount of 1st preference votes in elections but few transfers which indicates that their support is solid but quite static as all other parties get a lot of transfer votes from other parties. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/22 "2009-03-11T17:17:59Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I don’t remember black Americans running a similarly futile campaign of violence in the 1960s. There were a lot of riots though. There was also the Black Panters and other groups but over all you’re right. There was no history of armed struggle going back hundreds(Robert Emmet, Tone etc) of years though like there was in the republican world. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/23 "2009-03-11T17:25:45Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I don’t remember black Americans running a similarly futile campaign of violence in the 1960s. Different situation, vatly different geography and they didn’t need to. In Northern Ireland the Stormont government did nothing to stop Protestant violence and the sectarian police were also the base membership of Protestant terror groups. Remember the British Army was initially sent in to protect Catholics from Protestant mobs. It’s difficult to keep turning the other cheek when all that happens is you get another punch. The Protestants provoked the violence and the IRA seized the opportunity. Then all sides, including the Brits, behaved with savage disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/24 "2009-03-11T18:09:09Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Two of the three IRA splinters have claimed credit for the two attacks. The third will probably feel obliged to carry one out soon. > > A couple of arrests have been made. Who? INLA? I think they’re on an unofficial ceasefire. OIRA? Been quiet since 1972. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/25 "2009-03-11T18:11:28Z")
CIRA and RIRA Continuity IRA and Real IRA. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/26 "2009-03-11T18:17:00Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Not really. > > The Brits in question were the army and pols though. There was never a time when the Republican movement, SF or IRA wanted Unionist/Loyalist locals to get out of Ireland. > > From the United Irishmen on the refrain was also that green and orange should come together under the banner of self-determinism(is that even a word). As I said in my post Republicanism isn’t in and of itself sectarian. I’m aware the specific “Brits Out” slogan refers to the apparatus of the British state but the violent Republicans acted as if just getting the army, British admin etc, to leave would be enough to secure their avowed goals ignoring the fact you would still have roughly a million citizens who wanted no part in a United Ireland. I should have made myself clearer in that regard though. **Quartz** , [here](http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html)’s an interesting link about the Protestant population of the Republic. It seems that discrimination was a contributory factor towards the migration of Protestants out of the south. It is worth nothing that the Free State/Republic has had at least two Protestant Presidents. Although the job is largely ceremonial it is perhaps indicative that the discrimination in the south was not as pervasive as in the north. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/27 "2009-03-11T18:17:33Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I don’t remember black Americans running a similarly futile campaign of violence in the 1960s. They had an extraordinary leader in Martin Luther King Jr. Not every civil rights movement is so lucky. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/28 "2009-03-11T18:23:56Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > CIRA and RIRA > > Continuity IRA and Real IRA. I meant the third one s/he mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/29 "2009-03-11T18:32:22Z")
Ahh sorry. I’m not too sure what 3rd one he was talking about. It is hard to keep up with all this shite though. It’s like a very unfunny scene from _The Life of Brian_ ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/30 "2009-03-11T18:33:15Z")
The third one is Oglaigh na hEireann, operating in Fermanagh/Tyrone apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/31 "2009-03-11T20:00:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Different situation, vatly different geography and they didn’t need to. Neither did Catholics. Please show me a route from bombs in places like La Mon, Warrington, Omagh to civil rights for Catholics. > [@tagos](#): > > In Northern Ireland the Stormont government did nothing to stop Protestant violence and the sectarian police were also the base membership of Protestant terror groups Which is why Stormont was wound up early on in The Troubles remember. And it’s quite a leap to declare that the entire police force moonlighted as paramilitary death squads :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/32 "2009-03-11T20:01:59Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > They had an extraordinary leader in Martin Luther King Jr. Not every civil rights movement is so lucky. John Hume seemed to do alright plodding along behind the scenes. It took a while to get things together but he played a pretty vital role I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/33 "2009-03-11T21:10:19Z")
I still had to take a moment to get my head around seeing Martin McGuinness with a government ministerial title behind his name, calling these people “traitors to the island of Ireland.” _Wow_. 🆒 Even 15 years ago, I’d have said you were a fool if you told me how far we’d have come by now. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/34 "2009-03-11T21:31:06Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > **Quartz** , [here](http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html)’s an interesting link about the Protestant population of the Republic. It seems that discrimination was a contributory factor towards the migration of Protestants out of the south. It is worth nothing that the Free State/Republic has had at least two Protestant Presidents. Although the job is largely ceremonial it is perhaps indicative that the discrimination in the south was not as pervasive as in the north. That’s most helpful. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/35 "2009-03-12T15:27:20Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > I still had to take a moment to get my head around seeing Martin McGuinness with a government ministerial title behind his name, calling these people “traitors to the island of Ireland.” > > _Wow_. > > 🆒 Even 15 years ago, I’d have said you were a fool if you told me how far we’d have come by now. Don’t mean to sound a tad cynical, but the Sinn Fein apologies were pretty carefully trodden. Being “traitors to the island of Ireland” is pretty close to being people who may adversely affect the Sinners’ votes come election time. Killings that impact more on the public than usual have traditionally been a real boost and a real drain (depending on who died) for Sinn Fein. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/36 "2009-03-12T15:36:58Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Neither did Catholics. Please show me a route from bombs in places like La Mon, Warrington, Omagh to civil rights for Catholics. > > Which is why Stormont was wound up early on in The Troubles remember. And it’s quite a leap to declare that the entire police force moonlighted as paramilitary death squads :rolleyes: Why should I? It happened and they got them. If the Protestant leaders were not such a bunch of hateful bigoted bastards the issue should have been moot. The police force was known for its members dual role in loyalist paramilitary groups and the B Specials particularly. So if you don’t like the facts at least spare me your silly emoticons. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/37 "2009-03-12T16:19:33Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Killings that impact more on the public than usual have traditionally been a real boost and a real drain (depending on who died) for Sinn Fein. And visa versa Politicians, especially in NI have all got boosts from the actions of para-militaries. **EJsGirl** point is a good one. It’s better this way than the way it was. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/38 "2009-03-12T16:46:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’ve long heard from older people and people from NI that there is considerable discrimination in the Republic against Protestants, particularly in the state sector. Is there any foundation to those claims? Absolutely none officially, and about as much socially in modern times as you’d get against catholics socially in the UK. It’s one of the canards that floated by the likes of the “Love Ulster” brigade in order to instigate a fear of the Republic. Speaking only for myself, I see the protestant community in the six counties as being as Irish as they are British. We’ve a hell of a lot more culturally in common than I think they would realise, and there’s as much Protestant culture in the Irish flag as there is Catholic. Personally, I’d love to see the Orange Order at the head of a St. Patricks Day parade. A cultural (re- )unification would show they have little to fear from a political one. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/39 "2009-03-12T16:50:44Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Which is why Stormont was wound up early on in The Troubles remember. And it’s quite a leap to declare that the entire police force moonlighted as paramilitary death squads :rolleyes: Not the entire force, but certainly enough. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971/40 "2009-03-12T16:59:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Why should I? It happened and they got them. So… no cite? No explanation, no line of logic? I thought this was Great Debates. > [@tagos](#): > > If the Protestant leaders were not such a bunch of hateful bigoted bastards the issue should have been moot. Northern Ireland would be a very happy place without it’s bigotry, thank you for stating the obvious. > [@tagos](#): > > The police force was known for its members dual role in loyalist paramilitary groups and the B Specials particularly. So if you don’t like the facts at least spare me your silly emoticons. :rolleyes: Again, going from some officers to the whole force as basically terrorist is quite a leap. And again, any cites? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorist-murders-in-n-ireland-why/488971.md?page=3)