Republican answer = They were not murderers they were brave men who fought and made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and people. I wasn’t suicide, it was a sacrifice on the alter of freedom and justice.
If you don’t understand the above POV then you’ll never get it. It doesn’t matter what the empirical truth is. What matters is how you perceive reality. People don’t support murderers they support people who fight for them and their shared beliefs.
800 years of British oppression and colonialism possibly? The Provos and their supporters were completely convinced of the importance and validity of their cause and when you do the background it is hard to argue otherwise in my opinion. Many people would not be very happy to hear Bobby Sands described as a ‘murderer who committed suicide.’ He remains a massive hero in Republican communities.
That can’t be right, surely? Whitelaw was a Conservative, Callaghan was Labour.
Anyway, I wandered into this thread to ask about this:
We can all agree that there has been an escalation over time, right? (Rather than a sort of statistical cluster.) How do people see this going?
The dissident leadership were presumably miscellaneous individual members of the IRA who’ve slowly been putting together a new organisation. That implies that they’re of an older generation. No doubt some young numbskulls have also joined in, as young numbskulls always will. But have the dissident groups been aiming at hearts and minds in the nationalist community, in order to build up the sort of base of sympathy and support that eventually got Sinn Féin to where they are today, or are they confining themselves to “military” action? Are there any indications that there is the potential for support developing for these groups? Or is their support really only in specific localities, due to local personalities and local politics?
Clearly there’s no mainstream support or even sympathy for any of these groups. But I’m trying to gauge where the natural water level is going to be (assuming they’ve not in fact already reached their high-tide mark). As the remaining hardcore members of the Provo generation get too old, have they captured enough support for the transition to a new generation, or will this mean their numbers are dwindling (or will soon do so)?
Also, are the three dissident groups actually distinct, or is there any co-operation or overlap between them… or even rivalry?
And finally, how does this all relate to the rioting we’ve been seeing in nationalist/republican areas?
It might be splitting hairs but some of the hunger strikers weren’t convicted of murder. Sands was convicted of possession of firearms.
A generation of kids have grown up with no direct experience of the Troubles, some of these may be prone to getting involved as they can’t recall how bad things were in the past.
There are political arms of these groups, and IIRC they do enjoy a small amount of support in certain parts of NI, but nothing compared to support for Sinn Féin or the SDLP.
I think it’s unlikely that they’ll ever garner any huge amount of support but it is a worry that they’re stepping up their activities at a time when much of the younger generation is finding it hard to find work, prospects. Idle hands and all that.
I think as long as NI remains a part of the UK (and maybe after that) individuals will find it attractive to join such groups. For a number of reasons, it gives them local noteriety and power, access to lucrative criminal activities, alleviates boredom, etc.
They could very well overlap, although they seem to operate in different geographic areas. All I’ve read so far indicates they have a oneupmanship going on, rather than a direct rivalry. Although bloody rivalries amongst and within Republican gangs are hardly uncommon. See the Stickies/PIRA/INLA etc.
This has been dubbed “recreational” rioting in the local press. The anti-authoritarianism that kids soak up from an early age in some areas manifests itself in these sort of activities. The main way it relates is that presumably any volunteers or supporters of the latest terrorists will be drawn from those sections of the community.
It wasn’t Whitelaw. It was Merlyn Rees.
What other sources of funding are there?
Things like this for a start.
£26.5M is a nice piece of change.
A. Gwilliam, An Gadai has covered your questions pretty well so no real need to repeat his answers.
This really struck me a couple of months ago when I was on a car journey with a couple of friends, I was discussing this issue and said to my friend in the front seat, “I wonder if the dissidents will start targeting England like the IRA”, my friend in the back scoffed, and said, “The IRA never attacked England!”, with a hesitant, “…did they?” after she saw the look on our faces.
I’m 32 so not exactly an old geezer, my friend is 23, smart and pretty well educated, if she was unaware of this elementary part of recent history what do people from less advantaged areas know about it, and perhaps more importantly, what are they being told about it?
Weren’t the notes involved in that robbery cancelled en masse by the authorities? Or was that just a PR exercise and they can still be used?
While Thatcher was vilified for her view of the hunger strikers by some, there was also a significant proportion of the left, including myself, who viewed her reaction as pretty much the only defensible thing she did in her time in office.
Bobby Sands wants to kill himself, so be it. He had a hell of a lot more choice than the IRA victims. He also had a hell of a lot more choice than others of the hunger strikers who were told their families would be murdered if they started eating.
The support elements of the left gave the Provos was a fucking disgrace.
Amen. Finally the US remember what allies are about and cut the funding for murdering scum off.
And the source of this allegation is … ?
Conversations with SDLP people in the later eighties. But I cannot find any back up for it, so take it or leave it. I don’t find it implausible that the IRA and INLA would put pressure on it’s men to continue their path to starvation, but, as noted, I haven’t found a cite backing it up.
For what it’s worth, wikipedia has this to say (the original text includes cites):
On this note does anyone remember a semi-recent flare up in Catholic-Protestant relations regarding a school in N. Ireland? It may have been some years ago but I remember seeing awful scenes of school children being booed and jeered as they were walking to school.
I think the police may even have been there as a barrier for the children.
I don’t remember which side is which but can anyone remember the events I’m talking about? I can picture the BBC news report now but I haven’t been able to find any videos or reports online.
If NI were (re)united with the Republic . . . what would happen? Would it make any Irish lives better, North or South, Prot or Papist?
Well I wouldn’t have to change currency to visit my relatives. 
Honestly, in this day and age I doubt it would make things better and might make things worse for many. For example, the north benefits from the NHS, a system that a 32 county Republic probably couldn’t adequately match. I’ve thought about this a lot and I reckon it would take decades, if we started today and everyone was willing, to create a united Ireland that didn’t result in a dip in living standards for much of the populace.
And you won’t, at least not a credible one. The SDLP would hardly be an unbiased source. Anyway the idea that (a) IRA and INLA prisoners on hunger strike in the H-Blocks would have told SDLP members that their families had been threatened, and (b) the SDLP would have kept it to themselves, except of course in casual conversations with people in England (I assume) in the late 1980s, certainly *is *implausible - to say the least.
If you actually read any of the histories on the subject, the hunger strikers were chosen very carefully to ensure their absolute commitment to see it through. Far more volunteered than were allowed to take part. The idea that they would have had to be threatened into doing so is part of the same line of thinking that led to a major shock for certain people when Bobby Sands actually won that election.
A quick question on something that struck me today about the funeral of PC Kerr. The day was (rightly) heavy on symbolism, political and religious leadership from all sides in Northern Ireland attended and so did Taoiseach Enda Kenny. However I didn’t notice any high-level representatives from the British leadership in London. They may have been there but I didn’t see them, if they didn’t attend was it because they didn’t want to overshadow the show of unity from the local politicians or was it meant to signify something else, ie that power has been transferred locally and London is taking a hands-off approach to things?