# Terrorists and Neo-Cons: Two Sides of the Same Coin **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221 "2005-05-24T04:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/41 "2005-05-26T15:47:27Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > First, let me deal with this because I have such a beef with it: > > I am not anti-war _per se_. I am about as pro-American as you can get. I recognize Bush and his minions for what they are: Shifty psuedo-intellectual cowards who choose to use the American government and therefore the American people for their own ends which are contrary to what is best for this nation. If this means lying through their teeth to involve us in a, AT THE VERY BEST, questionable war with Iraq, then they will do it and what is even worse is that they will not except responsiblity for any of their greivous lapses in the common sense. That statement proves that you do not know your butt apart from a burnt biscuit. Bush is not a coward, nor is he a pseudo-intellectual. You’re simply playing the liberal slander game: if you yell it loud enough and often enough, then magically it will become true. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > But you are right, Jimmy Carter didn’t know how to invade a country in the Middle East when every regime there was hostile to us at the time. He did however agree to an operation that was supposed to not crash in the desert but what can you do? We had to wait for Reagan to trade them guns and missles to get them released. What a patriot! > > But that is all I wish to debate with you, nitpick away, I JUST GOT INTO LAW SCHOOL MOTHERFUCKER! HA HA! Great, just what the country needs. Another asshole lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/42 "2005-05-26T16:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > In fairness UB, post 11/9 any politician who didn’t come out with Broad Support for The “war on terror”, carrying a small American flag and singing “God Bless America” on the steps of Congress was signing their own political suicide note. Yeah, I s’pose. But the “War on Terror” was actually well under way before that September event. Remember all the hand-wringing postulation, from many quarters, that 9/11 was perpetrated _as retribution_? If that’s true, and even if it’s not, the U.S. **must** have been doing something Al Qaeda thought it needed to retaliate against. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/43 "2005-05-26T16:21:34Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > The men and women who wear the uniform go for one reason only and that is to protect our freedom.\*\* I was under the impression that a lot of them joined for free education or come from an area with little or no chances of advancement? How lucky you are to have an army of selfless heroes solely dedicated to “freedom”. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/44 "2005-05-26T16:46:47Z")
> [@](#): > > was under the impression that a lot of them joined for free education or come from an area with little or no chances of advancement? They do. That and to “Kill a Commie for Mommy.” Higwayman is just blustering nonsense. But you already know that. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/45 "2005-05-26T16:56:21Z")
Ahh those Mommies and their Commie killing needs. Ya gotta love them. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/46 "2005-05-26T17:09:07Z")
Maommie? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/47 "2005-05-26T17:18:05Z")
Nah, I prefer Burger King-at least they are honest about their decadence. And what happened on 11/9–or is that a very funny typo? I don’t see how one party can own all the ideals of a country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/48 "2005-05-26T17:21:51Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Yeah, I s’pose. But the “War on Terror” was actually well under way before that September event. Remember all the hand-wringing postulation, from many quarters, that 9/11 was perpetrated _as retribution_? If that’s true, and even if it’s not, the U.S. **must** have been doing something Al Qaeda thought it needed to retaliate against. The main argument from AQ has been to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia, as a prelude to getting them out of the entire M.E. I don’t see how that is a retribution against previous “War on Terrorism” acts by the US. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/49 "2005-05-26T17:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > And what happened on 11/9–or is that a very funny typo? No typo. TwistofFate is one a them European-types; Irish specifically. Lives in, or around Dublin, if I’m not mistaken. > [@](#): > > The main argument from AQ has been to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia, as a prelude to getting them out of the entire M.E. I don’t see how that is a retribution against previous “War on Terrorism” acts by the US. But the U.S. troops in the M.E. are there ostensibly to protect U.S. interests from regional instability which is fueled largerly by . . . terrorism. No? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/50 "2005-05-26T17:55:20Z")
Ostensibly, perhaps. But the US troops went to SA to protect their oilfields (and the Gulf-region oil oligopsony) from Saddam, not from terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/51 "2005-05-26T18:10:33Z")
There has been “war on terrorists” pretty much as long as there have been terrorists. UK has tried it in Northern Ireland, Israel in the Gazza strip, US is trying it in Afghanistan. But conventional forces never did have much use against terrorist tactics, and holding ground only gives them a larger area of opporation. As for politics, it has always been a useful political tactic to define an enemy, it helps coalless otherwise dissperate groups within a party. But neo-cons and terrorists are not similar and so “two sides of the same coin” is a follish analogy. Shame some politician doesn’t declare war on hunger as their aim, it could generate just as much industry as war on terrorism does, and if handelled carefully could be just as effective at reducing the terrorist risk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/52 "2005-05-26T18:56:13Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > But the U.S. troops in the M.E. are there ostensibly to protect U.S. interests from regional instability which is fueled largerly by . . . terrorism. No? No. The US troops in Saudi Arabia were holdovers from the first Gulf War, which was about Saddam, not terrorism. I’m not actually disputing your assertion about the WoT being older than 9/11/01. Especially as we look back, it’s natural for us to say: Well, the WoT really bagan on such-and-such a date, although it didn’t reach it’s present proportion until after the 9/11 attacks. But I don’t think it’s correct to assume that the 9/11 attacks prove there must have been a WoT beforehand since those attacks were a retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/53 "2005-05-27T01:22:43Z")
\*\*\*Back down from the euphoria of getting into law school. 🆒 \*\*\* > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > That statement proves that you do not know your butt apart from a burnt biscuit. Bush is not a coward, nor is he a pseudo-intellectual. You’re simply playing the liberal slander game: if you yell it loud enough and often enough, then magically it will become true. Sorry buddy, but shirking your duty to this country is cowardice especially coming from someone who is now so bellicose. Our heroic president was AWOL from his cushy stateside duty during the Vietnam war that his rich daddy got him. Unfortunately, documentary evidence (I.E. a “smoking gun”) is in short supply (which defies explanation given that the military is known for generating paperwork) but the secretary for Bush’s commanding officer states that that officer acknowledged this fact. Contrary to this evidence, Bush and his spin factory have not been able to produce ONE SINGLE CREDIBLE piece of evidence to refute these charges with the exception of ONE slack-jawed crossed-eyed dipshit who himself cannot produce any evidence to corroborate his statements. I suppose you’re right, going to Yale or having an MBA from Harvard doesn’t make you an intellectual especially if you’re a rich cocksucker not their on merit but I am referring to the likes of Wolfowitz and Perle and the other “intellectuals” driving our foreign policy. Speaking of which, it is not slander to state that those same Neo-Cons, Wolfowitz and Perle, were taught by Leo Strauss. I find their “ideas” not exactly credible; both Strauss on primary source text explication and his followers ideas on foreign policy. Therefore, I consider these people “pseudo-intellectuals” but that is my opinion and if you don’t like it, refute it with evidence and not pedantic arguments against my particular idiom or outright namecalling both of which are unimaginative and demonstrate your lack of couth. The fact that Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Rice never wearing the uniform is particularly telling. Bush and Rumsfeld wore the uniform but neither saw actual combat. I suppose cowardly does not apply technically but given how John Kerry was treated during the last election, I will label them as such. As far as stating something over and over again making it magically true, Republicans are the best at this. Look how many times Saddam’s procession of WMDs was mentioned. It wasn’t true. So I guess the fact that they are liars is apt as well. The use of the term “BU$HCO”, as far as I’m concerned, is perfect for a regime that continuously puts the corporation above the American people. Let’s see, the new bankruptcy law, the “Clean Air” laws, letting the likes of Enron dictate our country’s energy policy, and so on and so forth. I believe that people like Bush and many in corporate America don’t really care about our country other than the fact that it is where the wealth in concentrated now. And you should talk about labels. “Liberal” is a dirty word to people like you and the continuous effort to re-brand something that merely means “those that believe in new ideas” shows that you are not above this. But hey you people are brilliant, an example of which is Lemur866’s tirade about Communism including a quote from a socialist. But I suppose that you have a worldview constructed that makes mine seem idiotic. Well, this shows what an idiot you really are. It would be foolish to assume that one’s position is correct over another’s when these opposing position were formed subjectively and relative to one’s own experience. This is opinion, all of it and to boil it all down to something we can use and from which we can argue from is to ask whether BU$HCO is really effective in “winning” the war on terrorism. Because if this is their aim then they are doing a real shitty job of it. But if their aim is to perpetuate a worldwide conflict in order to perpetuate their own power, then this makes more sense. Does terrorism stop when we win the hearts and minds (or at least diminish the hatred) of the people of the Middle East or does it stop when we wage unjustified war (Iraq, not Afghanistan) against them? This is what I’m referring to. Bin Laden wants to bring us down because he hates (along with the rest of the M.E.) the effects of globalism and the subsequent lose of their culture. He orchestrates 9/11 which has the effect of causing us to shut down our free society in many ways, costs us in extra security that will have a deleterious effect on our nation that will weaken our economy in the long run, and moves his marginal place in M.E. society to the dead center. So you see, the current foreign policy of this country goes against common sense. And I’m the idiot? You fuckwit. So being that BU$HCO isn’t exactly stupid (some would disagree), why then do you wish to go against the logical objectives? Oh yeah, to spread democracy. That’s great! If you believe that then you’re more of an asshat than I thought. If we were so concerned about “democracy” why are our best friends military strongmen and corrupt aristocracies? So now that we have examined the rationale of those guiding our foreign policy, what could be the reason for doing what we have done in the M.E. because winning the war of terrorism doesn’t seem to be the objective. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/54 "2005-05-27T02:12:04Z")
I simply have no reply to your statement, save for the fact that John Mace is clearly projecting tactics of his party onto the big bad liberals Everything else, you said better then I would have. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > \*\*\*Back down from the euphoria of getting into law school. 🆒 \*\*\* Very 🆒 indeed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/55 "2005-05-27T05:33:53Z")
Hey thanks Scott Plaid… Some encouragement is a nice change from being insulted all the time by some of the other posters. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/56 "2005-05-27T10:11:22Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I simply have no reply to your statement, save for the fact that John Mace is clearly projecting tactics of his party onto the big bad liberals. I am? Please show me exactly where that is, and while you’re at it, what is my party? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/57 "2005-05-29T03:49:49Z")
You are quite welcome, **Highwayman** , but: :smack: **Martin Hyde**. I meant to say “ **Martin Hyde** is clearly projecting tactics of his party onto the big bad liberals”, not John Mace. Sorry. I am a :wally ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/58 "2005-05-31T11:41:04Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That statement proves that you do not know your butt apart from a burnt biscuit. Bush is not a coward, nor is he a pseudo-intellectual. You’re simply playing the liberal slander game: if you yell it loud enough and often enough, then magically it will become true. Isn’t that how we got into this war in the first place. Only it wasn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/59 "2005-05-31T11:49:33Z")
As long as we’re playing this game: Of course the adminstration is made up of a pack of cowards. They all found ways to get our of Vietnam, didn’t they? They all had ‘more important things’. Rummy was teaching an oh-so-essential course, and so on… This alone wouldn’t make them cowards, self preservation is a perfectly acceptable motivation. What does make them intellectual cowards and chickenhawks to boot is that they want others to make the sacrifice that they refused to. If that isn’t intellectual cowardice, I don’t know what is. “It’s important to serve your country and give your life for what your leaders say, but when it was my turn, I wasn’t up for it. But you should be! Yep… please sign on the dotted line and you’ll be shipped off to the quag, er, I mean, war. Yep, the war. On terror. In Iraq… Oh fuck it, just enlist, Haliburton is having trouble making ends meet.” And no, they’re not pseudo-intellectuals, they don’t even bother to pretend. They’re the biggest bunch of anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-public debate fuckers I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221/60 "2005-05-31T13:24:32Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I for one am quite sick of this “terrorism” boogyman. I say they won a long time ago. I for one welcome our alien overlords … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/terrorists-and-neo-cons-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/305221.md?page=4)