# Tesla.. How do they do it and why what they do can't be done cheaply? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739 "2013-06-11T17:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/21 "2013-06-11T21:51:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > BTW, and this might be a hijack, but if I were designing an electric car from scratch, would there be any advantage to having a separate motor for each wheel? [They’re working on it.](http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=158&post=186#) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/22 "2013-06-11T22:16:26Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Other companies will figure this out eventually, but the first thing they have to do is stop pretending that you can bolt an electrical motor to an existing gasoline car and have a good final product. Electric cars need to be engineered differently from the start. They _have_ figured it out, or did you forget about the GM EV1? They just realized pretty quickly that it would be a big time money loser. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/23 "2013-06-11T23:51:32Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > They _have_ figured it out, or did you forget about the GM EV1? They just realized pretty quickly that it would be a big time money loser. It was a valiant effort, but lead-acid and NiMH batteries were never going to make a practical electric car. Also, GM is about the furthest thing from a lean and mean company. A car that’s unprofitable for them isn’t necessarily unprofitable for a smaller company. Further, even Tesla doesn’t (yet) know how to build a practical mid-range electric. They’re only profitable because they’ve tapped the luxury market. But the lessons they learn now will carry forward, and so they’ll figure it out eventually. By contrast, GM and other makers are carrying the dead weight of a hundred years of IC engine experience. It’s worse than useless because it prevents them from taking a clean slate approach. But like I said, they’ll figure it out eventually, since Tesla will provide the necessary existence proof. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/24 "2013-06-12T00:07:14Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Depends. Then you have to be sure the wheels turn in sync, so the car does not pull to one side; but allow for turn differences, traction issues, etc. But you eliminate the differential and axles. So what is simpler for maintenace, control, etc? Good question. Electrics are more flexible, clearly. Electronic control is more than good enough to keep the motors in sync. But even better, you can have vastly superior traction control systems as compared to single-source IC/electrics. Your car could rotate in place if need be. > [@md2000](#): > > Electric cars are a niche market. IC cars are also a niche market, but people don’t know it yet. One day, fairly soon, people will find it utterly bizarre that people had to stop at these disgusting, unsafe places every week or two to keep their cars running. > [@md2000](#): > > the extra equipment of the batteries and engine make them more complex Nonsense. Electrics are vastly simpler than IC cars. A brushless electric motor like on Model S has _one_ moving part. > [@md2000](#): > > I suspect the people who buy a Tesla have a second car that CAN take those 400-mile trips the odd time they want to do so, once every few months (or can afford to rent); they typically commute short enough that the Tesla works for that. Or, you just charge when you stop for lunch. > [@md2000](#): > > By contrast, the average car buyer either can’t afford or doesn’t care to spend the extra to buy a car that does less and costs more. The Tesla far exceeds ordinary cars in all kinds of metrics, even accounting for price. It isn’t perfect, but then no car is. > [@md2000](#): > > the majority of USA electricity is produced using fossil fuels (coal or gas). A plug-in electric does very little for the environemnt in that case. Electrics are better even on coal power. They are _much_ better on natural gas, and obviously “infinitely” better on hydro/nuclear/solar/wind. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/25 "2013-06-12T00:21:49Z")
I suspect that Tesla will be eclipsed when a new battery technology overtakes lithium-ion batteries. So for you “early adopters” wait a bit. If the battery price declines substantially, you will be able to by an electric car for a lot less. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/26 "2013-06-12T13:36:00Z")
So I may not have to wait till I’m 90 something to be able to buy a reasonably priced, powerful, all electric car with good range. Technology does advance very quickly sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/27 "2013-06-12T14:06:09Z")
With regard to Tesla’s “shitload of batteries” strategy: The [standard Toyota Prius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW30)#Powertrain) has a 1.4 kWh battery. This is basically enough for handling regen braking and a little bit of power trimming to optimize engine operation. The [plug-in version of the Toyota Prius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW30)#ZVW35:_plug-in_version) has a 4.4-kWh battery, giving it an all-electric range of about 14 miles. The [Chevy Volt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_volt#Battery) uses a 16.5 kWh battery, giving it an all-electric range of 38 miles. The [Tesla Model S](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery) offers an 85 kWh battery, giving it a range of approximately 300 miles. I believe the SI unit for 85 kWh is “1 shitload.” > [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > Electric motors are very compact and have the very nice property that they make maximum torque at zero RPM. More to the point, having peak torque at very low RPM means you don’t have to have as high a peak torque (or power output) as a vehicle whose peak torque occurs at a higher RPM. In a drag race, getting acceleration done sooner instead of later is what keeps the 0-60 time down - so if your electric motor is able to provide peak torque as soon as the light turns green (instead of 1 or 2 seconds later when an IC engine RPM gets up to where it can make peak torque), you’ll be well on your way to the finish line before the other guy really gets moving. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/28 "2013-06-12T15:05:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Or, you just charge when you stop for lunch. Do you know what kinda electrical power levels you need to recharge a long range electric car in a half hour to hour timeframe? Copper wiring more the size of pipes than wires. Which is bad enough. But one for every customer in the parking lot that wants to charge their car? Every eating place would need to be nearly a substation to be able do that. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/29 "2013-06-12T15:21:03Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Do you know what kinda electrical power levels you need to recharge a long range electric car in a half hour to hour timeframe? For an 85 kWh battery, from full discharge to fully charged? 170 kilowatts. That’s a healthy V6 engine churning away at max power output for half an hour (if it can survive that long). Tesla’s batteries are 375 volts, so we’re talking about 450 amps going into the battery. Not sure if the battery itself can take that, but even if it can, the charging cable would be bloody huge. #0000 gauge wire is 0.46 inches in diameter (not including insulation), and rated for about 300 amps, so we’re talking about a pair of very heavy cables. Assume 5/8" diameter conductor, with 1/4" of insulation, so each wire would be over an inch in diameter. Put two of those together with a protective sheath, and it’ll take a couple of manly men to hook up your Tesla. Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Orionizer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orionizer/32/4442_2.png) [@Orionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orionizer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/30 "2013-06-12T15:21:44Z")
I think one of the first things that needs to happen is they need to require these things to make some kind of noise. I was at an outdoor shopping area and walked by a Prius, I think. Couldn’t even hear it as it was idling in a parking space. I realize the hybrids use the gas motor as well, so some noise is generated, but an all electric? That’s pretty scary in a pedestrian situation. I think they should be required to make them sound like George Jetson’s car. woop woop wooop wooooop ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/31 "2013-06-12T15:36:52Z")
Anybody know the fate of the Fiskar electric car? AFAIK, they only made 1200 of them…of which quite a few caught fire and burned. Did they go bust? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/32 "2013-06-12T15:42:00Z")
Yes, Fisker Auto (maker of the Fisker Karma) laid off just about all of the employees a couple of months ago. Edited to add, Better Place, started by Shai Agassi, also shut down. Their idea was that the entire battery assembly would be replaced at a station with a freshly charged one. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/33 "2013-06-12T15:59:14Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Rumor is that [Lithium–air](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93air_battery) batteries are the next big thing. Right, battery technology is still advancing. Even regular Lithium-ion batteries have been increasing capacity by ~8% per year, and other technologies like Lithium-air and sulfur are being developed. > **[New all-solid sulfur-based battery outperforms lithium-ion technology](https://phys.org/news/2013-06-all-solid-sulfur-based-battery-outperforms-lithium-ion.html)** > > (Phys.org) —Scientists at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory have designed and tested an all-solid lithium-sulfur battery with approximately four times the energy density of conventional lithium-ion technologies that power... ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/34 "2013-06-12T16:25:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Anybody know the fate of the Fiskar electric car? AFAIK, they only made 1200 of them..of which quite a few caught fire and burned. Did they go bust? They’re not bankrupt yet, but they haven’t made a car in months, and are desperately trying to fend off the inevitable while they look for someone foolish enough to buy the company. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/35 "2013-06-12T16:37:06Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Or, you just charge when you stop for lunch. What if it’s not lunchtime? Seriously. The problem there is, you have to plan your trip around recharging. Gassing up a conventional car takes 2 minutes, maybe 5 if you go inside to buy a candy bar. In contrast, the fastest charging schemes still require about 20-30 minutes. That means that electrics have a rather big convenience drawback compared to IC cars. As I explained above, even Tesla has never managed to make a dime selling electric cars. Tesla occasionally talks about ramping up production, but they’re not going to do it any time soon because if they did, they’d lose their ass because their unprofitable car sales would overwhelm the meager profit they make selling tax credits. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/36 "2013-06-12T16:44:54Z")
The statistic I’ve heard is that on average, Americans drive about 30-40 miles each day (to and from work, to the supermarket, etc.). So for most people, an electric car can be used for those daily needs and recharged at night. Most people are not driving hundreds of miles regularly. And even then, if a family owns two cars and only one of them is electric, they may be able to use the conventional car on the occasional long trips. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/37 "2013-06-12T16:54:38Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > I think one of the first things that needs to happen is they need to require these things to make some kind of noise. I think pedestrians need to take responsibility for their safety by pocketing their cellphones and using their eyes to look around them. Anyone relying primarily on their ears to navigate safely through a parking lot is not going to live long; that was true even before hybrids and e-cars. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/38 "2013-06-12T16:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Orionizer View Post > I think one of the first things that needs to happen is they need to require these things to make some kind of noise. The Volt has a little pedestrian warning horn you can engage to let people know you’re in the area. It’s not a loud as the real horn, and right on the turn indicator handle. ---
**Author:** ![Orionizer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orionizer/32/4442_2.png) [@Orionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orionizer)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/39 "2013-06-12T17:01:56Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I think pedestrians need to take responsibility for their safety by pocketing their cellphones and using their eyes to look around them. Anyone relying primarily on their ears to navigate safely through a parking lot is not going to live long; that was true even before hybrids and e-cars. Oh, I agree totally on that point - get your face out of the cell phone. I am quite self aware, also, but a lot of people are not. Being the sue happy nation we are, it’s only a matter of time before this becomes an issue. ETA: Also, if I can’t have my damn flying car, I at least want something to sound like it! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/40 "2013-06-12T17:07:10Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Tesla currently uses 18650… I thought that you were going to say “hearing aid batteries.” > [@Dr. Strangelove](#): > > One day, fairly soon, people will find it utterly bizarre that people had to stop at these disgusting, unsafe places every week or two to keep their cars running I agree with you, but for very large values of “fairly soon.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=3)