# Tesla.. How do they do it and why what they do can't be done cheaply? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739 "2013-06-11T17:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/41 "2013-06-12T17:20:11Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > ETA: Also, if I can’t have my damn flying car, I at least want something to sound like it! 😉 Make mine sound like a TIE fighter. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/42 "2013-06-12T18:08:49Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Make mine sound like a TIE fighter. If they did that I’d find a way to buy one. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/43 "2013-06-12T19:35:40Z")
Even with that tiny battery, the Prius will get off the line pretty fast in power mode. Torque is a beautiful thing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/44 "2013-06-12T20:43:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The statistic I’ve heard is that on average, Americans drive about 30-40 miles each day (to and from work, to the supermarket, etc.). So for most people, an electric car can be used for those daily needs and recharged at night. Most people are not driving hundreds of miles regularly. And even then, if a family owns two cars and only one of them is electric, they may be able to use the conventional car on the occasional long trips. This is one of those ideas which makes more sense in theory than in practice. It only works if the family is ok with switching cars around as needed, has every predictable needs and schedules with few unexpected needs, and has a schedule which permits frequent charging, and where at least one family memeber likes an electric model enough to get it. > [@Troutman](#): > > Right, battery technology is still advancing. Even regular Lithium-ion batteries have been increasing capacity by ~8% per year, and other technologies like Lithium-air and sulfur are being developed. Well, not really. This is another theory-and-practice confusion, and it’s a particularly pernicious one. I have been hearing that same statistic with variations going back to at least the early 90’s. The problem is that a lot of it’s complete nonsense. Batteries aren’t really improving, and not at a very good rate as suggested. There’re a great many technologies which you can accomplish in a lab but not as a practical product anyone will buy. At the end of the day, you’re maybe eking out a 1%-2% marginal improvement a year in battery technology. This doesn’t mean no big increases will come, but it’s not very clear that we’re going to radically improve car batteries in the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/45 "2013-06-12T20:44:24Z")
The other reason for high cost is economies of scale. If you build 100,000 units of something you can build it a lot cheaper than if you only build a few hundred units. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/46 "2013-06-12T20:52:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > The statistic I’ve heard is that on average, Americans drive about 30-40 miles each day (to and from work, to the supermarket, etc.). So for most people, an electric car can be used for those daily needs and recharged at night. Most people are not driving hundreds of miles regularly. And even then, if a family owns two cars and only one of them is electric, they may be able to use the conventional car on the occasional long trips. > > This is one of those ideas which makes more sense in theory than in practice. It only works if the family is ok with switching cars around as needed, has every predictable needs and schedules with few unexpected needs, and has a schedule which permits frequent charging, and where at least one family memeber likes an electric model enough to get it. I think there are enough families for which this is the case that electric cars are practical. My brother, for instance, has a minivan, sedan and a motorcycle. Depending on where he is going and with whom, he might ride the motorcycle, take the sedan or the minivan. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/47 "2013-06-12T20:53:12Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > > [@Machine Elf](#): > > > > Make mine sound like a TIE fighter. > > If they did that I’d find a way to buy one. May the torque be with you. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/48 "2013-06-12T21:03:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, not really. This is another theory-and-practice confusion, and it’s a particularly pernicious one. I have been hearing that same statistic with variations going back to at least the early 90’s. The problem is that a lot of it’s complete nonsense. Batteries aren’t really improving, and not at a very good rate as suggested. There’re a great many technologies which you can accomplish in a lab but not as a practical product anyone will buy. At the end of the day, you’re maybe eking out a 1%-2% marginal improvement a year in battery technology. This doesn’t mean no big increases will come, but it’s not very clear that we’re going to radically improve car batteries in the foreseeable future. [This](http://gigaom.com/2013/02/10/how-battery-improvements-will-revolutionize-the-design-of-the-electric-car/) says they see improvements of 5-8%/year, ignoring all the alternative battery technologies currently in the development stage. Where are you getting 1-2%? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/49 "2013-06-12T21:04:20Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > What if it’s not lunchtime? Then go for a walk. It’s good for you. > [@Diceman](#): > > Seriously. The problem there is, you have to plan your trip around recharging. I’ve had to plan trips around refueling stops, so it’s not a purely electric problem. But anyway, the bigger picture here is that whatever inconvenience you discover for some rare situation has to be worse than the automatic savings you get by not having to stop at a station all those other times. Refueling doesn’t take 2 minutes from start to finish; probably more like 10 when you account for everything, and sometimes a lot more. If you refuel 50 times a year, then that’s like 8 hours of time per year that you get for free. All of your rare situations have to then exceed this if you’re going to show that electrics are less convenient overall. Also, I find the idea of not having to leave my car fantastic. The weather sometimes really, really sucks, and the annoyance cost of that 2 minutes may far exceed the time cost. I can avoid all that if 95% of the time I just plug it in in my garage. > [@Diceman](#): > > In contrast, the fastest charging schemes still require about 20-30 minutes. That means that electrics have a rather big convenience drawback compared to IC cars. Again, that’s _only_ true when you must use a charging station, which for most drivers is a tiny fraction of the time. The other 95% of the time, electrics are vastly more convenient, because you don’t have to stop at all–you just take 15 seconds to plug the car in in the warmth of your garage. > [@Diceman](#): > > As I explained above, even Tesla has never managed to make a dime selling electric cars. Can you provide a citation for this? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/50 "2013-06-12T21:16:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Tesla’s batteries are 375 volts, so we’re talking about 450 amps going into the battery. The Tesla Supercharger delivers 90 kW. They’ve been a little cagey about the specs; I’ve heard voltage figures from 440 to 800, which implies that the amps are in the 100-200 range. There’s no reason the charger voltage has to match the battery voltage; indeed, it’s a good idea to have a high charging voltage for wire size reasons. Also, your amps figure is for general-purpose power transmission. A short, open-air cable can get away with higher current. It’s even possible for them to water-cool the cable for higher capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/51 "2013-06-12T21:34:11Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The other 95% of the time, electrics are vastly more convenient, because you don’t have to stop at all–you just take 15 seconds to plug the car in in the warmth of your garage. I park on the street, as do most of the folks in my neighborhood. No driveways, no garages. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/52 "2013-06-12T21:38:48Z")
In that case, an electric car may not be appropriate for you; it’s certainly not the solution for everyone, just like owning only a motorcycle or a pickup truck is not the solution for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/53 "2013-06-12T22:26:33Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Then go for a walk. It’s good for you. arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. > [@](#): > > I’ve had to plan trips around refueling stops, so it’s not a purely electric problem. when “refueling” an EV can take multiple hours, yes it is a purely electric problem. > [@](#): > > But anyway, the bigger picture here is that whatever inconvenience you discover for some rare situation has to be worse than the automatic savings you get by not having to stop at a station all those other times. > > Refueling doesn’t take 2 minutes from start to finish; probably more like 10 when you account for everything, and sometimes a lot more. If you refuel 50 times a year, then that’s like 8 hours of time per year that you get for free. All of your rare situations have to then exceed this if you’re going to show that electrics are less convenient overall. > > Also, I find the idea of not having to leave my car fantastic. The weather sometimes really, really sucks, and the annoyance cost of that 2 minutes may far exceed the time cost. I can avoid all that if 95% of the time I just plug it in in my garage. I live in an apartment, I don’t have a garage. In fact, I have absolutely no way to plug in an EV. So if I were to run low on charge, I’d have to pray to hell that I could find a charging station somewhere, and have hours to kill while it charges. Meanwhile, if I run low on gas, I can rest assured that there are almost a dozen gas stations within minutes of home. I’ll put up with 10 minutes of “inconvenience” in exchange for peace of mind. > [@](#): > > Again, that’s _only_ true when you must use a charging station, which for most drivers is a tiny fraction of the time. The other 95% of the time, electrics are vastly more convenient, because you don’t have to stop at all–you just take 15 seconds to plug the car in in the warmth of your garage. see above. and even if I did have a garage, I live in an area which was built up a fairly “long” time ago. Most garages don’t have 240VAC drops in them, so I’d have to shell out to have one run. That is, assuming the service I have could support that. If not, then it’s an even bigger outlay to have it upgraded. And yes, I know most EVs can recharge from a standard 120VAC line, but when the Nissan Leaf takes 20 hours to recharge from that, I don’t even want to think about how long it would take a Model S. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/54 "2013-06-12T22:37:23Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I live in an apartment, I don’t have a garage. In fact, I have absolutely no way to plug in an EV. So if I were to run low on charge, I’d have to pray to hell that I could find a charging station somewhere, and have hours to kill while it charges. Meanwhile, if I run low on gas, I can rest assured that there are almost a dozen gas stations within minutes of home. I’ll put up with 10 minutes of “inconvenience” in exchange for peace of mind. Electric cars aren’t for everyone. Neither are two-seater sports cars, Chevy Suburbans, pickup trucks, motorcycles, sedans, compact hatchbacks or tractor-trailers. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/55 "2013-06-12T22:38:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > In that case, an electric car may not be appropriate for you; it’s certainly not the solution for everyone, just like owning only a motorcycle or a pickup truck is not the solution for everyone. Oh, I get that and it doesn’t bother me. My fiancee drives a Prius that I often use and we will always have one very high MPG car in the family, and one AWD for winter use. I wouldn’t mind an electric but the current hurdles are too high to make it practical. Besides the street parking issue, each of us still needs to take occasional long trips that are impractical with the current plug-in technology. Electric cars are great in some situations, but the limitations still make them impractical as an only car for many/most people in the US. For short/medium term I think hybrids will take the lion’s share of the “green” market. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/56 "2013-06-12T22:50:31Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I live in an apartment, I don’t have a garage. In fact, I have absolutely no way to plug in an EV. If you have no way of plugging in an EV, then you shouldn’t buy an EV. That seems pretty simple. Does your one data point extrapolate to all of America? > [@jz78817](#): > > see above. and even if I did have a garage, I live in an area which was built up a fairly “long” time ago. Most garages don’t have 240VAC drops in them, so I’d have to shell out to have one run. Yes, it can require wiring upgrades. The Tesla uses around 300 W-h/mile. My commute is a short 5 mi each way, so even a baseline 120 V charger would handle my commute in about 2 hrs. Someone else with a 30 mile commute might need an upgrade to charge overnight. It just one of many factors to take into consideration when buying a car. Lots of apartments have charging stations these days, and more will come. It’s again just one more thing on the checklist, like whether pets are allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/57 "2013-06-12T22:56:23Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Besides the street parking issue, each of us still needs to take occasional long trips that are impractical with the current plug-in technology. Do you have something against renting? I have a normal IC car, but I usually rent on long trips, either because I need a vehicle that exceeds my current one in some way (number of passengers, etc.), or I just want to reduce wear and tear on my daily driver. It seems silly to me to choose a car based on rare circumstances; like buying a huge SUV because you tow a boat once a year. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/58 "2013-06-12T23:03:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If you have no way of plugging in an EV, then you shouldn’t buy an EV. That seems pretty simple. Does your one data point extrapolate to all of America? no, but neither does your “lots of apartments have charging stations” assertion. > [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Electric cars aren’t for everyone. Neither are two-seater sports cars, Chevy Suburbans, pickup trucks, motorcycles, sedans, compact hatchbacks or tractor-trailers. The difference is that two-seater sports cars, Chevy Suburbans, pickup trucks, motorcycles, sedans, compact hatchbacks and tractor-trailers don’t have relentless advocates like Chris Paine claiming that they _are_ for everyone. look, I’ve never denied that there are plenty of people for whom an EV makes perfect sense. I just bristle when advocates try to simplify everyone’s usage patterns into a neat package that just happens to fit an EV’s capabilities. Like the trope about how “most americans commute less than 40 miles a day.” Yes, that fits my drive to and from work. Except I don’t just drive to and from work. Frequently I have to go from my work site to a supplier site, and now that “40 mile” number just got tossed out on its ass. If I don’t have access to a charging station at work, now I’m faced with the possibility of my EV not being able to get me home. If you have regular, predictable usage patterns, an EV can work for you. If you don’t, an EV won’t work for you. My problem is that EV advocates try to claim too many people fit in the first group. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/59 "2013-06-12T23:21:31Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > no, but neither does your “lots of apartments have charging stations” assertion. See [here](http://www.carcharging.com/ev-owners/locations/#map_top). Click “live” for a list of apartments near you with charge stations. That is a highly incomplete list, of course, since it only covers one brand of charging station. It just happens to be the first one I found. There are lots near me in the Bay Area. > [@jz78817](#): > > The difference is that two-seater sports cars, Chevy Suburbans, pickup trucks, motorcycles, sedans, compact hatchbacks and tractor-trailers don’t have relentless advocates like Chris Paine claiming that they _are_ for everyone. I don’t know who Chris Paine is, but I’ll presume he’s an idiot if he says what you say he does. > [@jz78817](#): > > My problem is that EV advocates try to claim too many people fit in the first group. _Some_ EV advocates. That said, most people are actually really bad about focusing on rare situations above common ones. Yes, rare situations have to be accounted for, but they often have other solutions and it’s a bad idea to give them the same weight as common situations. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/60 "2013-06-12T23:34:47Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > See [here](http://www.carcharging.com/ev-owners/locations/#map_top). Click “live” for a list of apartments near you with charge stations. That is a highly incomplete list, of course, since it only covers one brand of charging station. It just happens to be the first one I found. There are lots near me in the Bay Area. contrary to popular belief, California is not the center of the universe. > [@](#): > > I don’t know who Chris Paine is, but I’ll presume he’s an idiot if he says what you say he does. is your Google broken? > [@](#): > > _Some_ EV advocates. > > That said, most people are actually really bad about focusing on rare situations above common ones. Yes, rare situations have to be accounted for, but they often have other solutions and it’s a bad idea to give them the same weight as common situations. If I’m to own one vehicle, that vehicle is going to cover as much of my usage pattern as possible. if you’re going to tell me that I should own an EV and just rent whenever my EV can’t hack it, then I’m going to ask if you’ll guarantee that the savings of owning an EV will offset the costs of renting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=4)