# Tesla.. How do they do it and why what they do can't be done cheaply? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739 "2013-06-11T17:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/81 "2013-06-14T17:29:58Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > I really like that idea about simply swapping standardized battery packs. Slide discharged one out, slide fully charged one in. Could do it in less time than fueling up. This was the entire basis for the Better Place company. And it just went bankrupt. They raised almost a billion dollars from investors, they got a major manufacture (Renault) to design and produce a car with a swappable battery, they built battery swapping stations…and then they only managed to sell about a thousand cars. It’s not a bad idea, but the market isn’t ready for it. And probably never will be. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/82 "2013-06-14T17:32:52Z")
Why didn’t it work? Sounds like a great idea. Solves the range problem. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/83 "2013-06-14T17:41:21Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Why didn’t it work? Sounds like a great idea. Solves the range problem. It only solves the range problem if there is a swap station exactly where you need it, when you need it. The car claimed to have a range of 120 kms (80 miles). But that’s under perfect conditions. In reality it had a range of maybe 60 miles—which means that you can leave your home with a full battery, (charged overnight in your garage)… But as soon as you get 30-45 minutes away from home, you start sweating, because you may not be able to get home again. You can’t go to grandma’s house unless there happens to be a swap station on the way. Not very convenient, and it’s a real change to most people’s lifestyle. A car should give you freedom to go where you want, not remove your freedom to go where you want. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/84 "2013-06-14T17:46:28Z")
Suppose, at some future date, that swapping stations were as common as gas stations are today? It seems like a great idea whose time has not yet arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/85 "2013-06-14T17:56:03Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > It seems like a great idea whose time has not yet arrived. There are lots of great ideas. What we need are practical ideas. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/86 "2013-06-14T18:02:36Z")
I can still imagine, sometime in the future, pulling into what used to be known as a gas station, sitting in my electric car, swiping a credit card… And a mechanical arm comes out and within a few seconds swaps out my discharged battery pack for a fully charged one, And I’m on my way for another 100 or 300 miles. I think that will happen someday. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/87 "2013-06-14T18:56:55Z")
Better yet, for travelers, you have a ten mile long conveyor that you drive your car onto. It charges and transports your car at the same time, moving you along at 10mph. These would be at major highway junctions, a chance to take a rest from driving. Replacing interstates with charging car trains could work out as well. 200 miles of sitting in your car not driving would probably be better for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/88 "2013-06-14T19:00:31Z")
The problem with these swapping stations is, where do you store the batteries? A typical gas station in a busy location probably sees hundreds of cars per day. You’re going to need a big warehouse attached to every station, probably with forklift trucks to haul the batteries out and trained personel to install them. Plus, you’ll need an utility hookup with enough capacity to charge hundreds of car batteries at once. No way is this type of facility ever going to be popping up at every intersection, the way gas stations have. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/89 "2013-06-14T20:06:31Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > What if it’s not lunchtime? > > Seriously. The problem there is, you have to plan your trip around recharging. Gassing up a conventional car takes 2 minutes, maybe 5 if you go inside to buy a candy bar. In contrast, the fastest charging schemes still require about 20-30 minutes. That means that electrics have a rather big convenience drawback compared to IC cars. > . . . I think the long-term plan is to be the next Exxon/Mobile, not the next GM. [http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger](http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/90 "2013-06-14T20:30:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > He he, I want to see the type of connector that induces hundreds of amps across an air gap. Remind me to remove all metal objects before going near, hope my fillings dont melt down. . . . Here ya go. . . [Wireless recharging: Pulling the plug on electric cars](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121120-pulling-the-plug-on-electric-cars) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/91 "2013-06-14T22:33:06Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Here ya go. . . [Wireless recharging: Pulling the plug on electric cars](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121120-pulling-the-plug-on-electric-cars) no, he doesn’t go. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/92 "2013-06-19T12:44:04Z")
[Tesla](https://twitter.com/elonmusk) is going to demonstrate battery swap technology tomorrow. They designed the Model S sedan so that the battery pack can be easily replaced. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/93 "2013-06-19T13:30:29Z")
Battery pack swap in under 5 minutes. Now we’re talkin’. Tesla uses a “shitload of batteries” to get extended range and awesome acceleration. How much weight are we dealing with here for their battery pack? And what are the battery pack’s dimensions? I somehow can’t visualize it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/94 "2013-06-19T13:57:07Z")
[Car and Driver](http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-tesla-model-s-test-review) says 1,323 pounds. > [@](#): > > That battery pack is roughly five feet wide, eight feet long, and four inches thick. It holds more than 7000 cylindrically shaped lithium-ion cells and weighs more than 1300 pounds, with a capacity of 85 kWh. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/95 "2013-06-19T14:07:56Z")
I visited a friend and his wife on Saturday night. They’re considering buying a Model S and she actually wants the “performance” version. If they get it, I’ll ask for a test drive. If that happens, I’ll report back. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/96 "2013-06-19T14:55:04Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > [Car and Driver](http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-tesla-model-s-test-review) says 1,323 pounds. Wow… That is big and heavy and somewhat ungainly to move around without breaking I suspect. Will have to watch that video, recording a swap out, after they do it. Should be fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/97 "2013-06-19T14:59:09Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > no, he doesn’t go. What’s up with all the snark coming from you in this thread? It’s not necessary. At any rate, Teslas are expensive now because of the business decision to appeal to monied people, and be seen as a luxury brand. Within the next two years, Tesla will introduce a car with a $40k price tag. It’s all a matter of economics, but you have to give it its proper time. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/98 "2013-06-19T16:53:39Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > [They’re working on it.](http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=158&post=186#) [Hiroshi Shimizu of Keio University](http://ic.sfc.keio.ac.jp/journal/profiles-of-sfc-research-projects-the-eliica-electric-vehicle-development-project/) developed [a prototype electric car with electric motors in each of it’s eight wheels](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica) called the Eliica back in 2004. It did 0 to 62 in 4 seconds and was able to accelerate to 230 mph. The car is obviously not practical, but the technology behind the motors and synchronization is pretty impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/99 "2013-06-19T18:27:33Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Wow… That is big and heavy and somewhat ungainly to move around without breaking I suspect. The battery pack is strong. It’s designed to be a structural member of the car, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739/100 "2013-06-19T19:21:32Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Here ya go. . . [Wireless recharging: Pulling the plug on electric cars](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121120-pulling-the-plug-on-electric-cars) > [@jz78817](#): > > no, he doesn’t go. So experts have the same cautions about safety: > [@](#): > > But electromagnetic induction technology across an air gap – say from a recharging pad to a car - is not considered the perfect solution by everyone. Critics point out it could possibly emit stray radio waves or heat up nearby metal objects unless it is engineered just right - two issues that the wireless electric vehicle industry knows could sink the technology if the public perceive them to be dangerous. “Perceive” is the key word here, as the industry strongly affirms that their power transfer technology has been fully tested and shown to be completely safe. “We crossed that threshold two years ago,” says David Schatz, vice president of sales & business development at WiTricity, a top maker of automotive recharging equipment. “The codes and standards are being written now.” The other problem with batteries swaps is quality. A battery has a finite lifespan; take my crap battery at the swapstation, and give me a really good new one, and I’ll take it home and keep charging it myself. At least with propane barbeque cylinders, the massive markup covers the risk (for the merchant) of accepting a bad one in trade. The ideal of course always is a battery pack capable of 95%-plus of the travel most families need. Or… daily commute plus after-work chorses and visits. I still think there’s a niche market for smaller 2-person commuter cars; but the law has to catch up. If I have to license and insure two cars instead of one - that’s an added cost. If my “license plate” were a transponder or similar easily swapped licensing, so I could not drive without it but it only could be used on one car at a time - then maybe the electric vs. gas savings would eventually justify the extra cost of the second vehicle. If my downtown parking cost half the price for a Smart-Car sized vehicle that used half the space… even more bonus. When it barely costs you more to have an optional second vehicle, people might accept a secon (or third) vehicle that does 66% of what they need. Instead, I hear stories about governments wanting to slap a tax on hybrids and electrics because they aren’t getting the same amount of gas tax from them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-how-do-they-do-it-and-why-what-they-do-cant-be-done-cheaply/660739.md?page=6)