# Tesla Motors
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 27, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941 "2009-03-27T01:23:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/1 "2009-03-27T01:23:16Z")
This is a conditional Pitting.
Tesla Motors, one of Elon Musk’s companies, is putting out their second electric car:
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts\_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead\_20090326224034](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead_20090326224034)
The first one, a two-seater could accelerate rapidly, go for a good while on a charge, and costs over $100k. This new one is a sedan, also does pretty well on a charge, and will go for around $50k, not counting incentives.
What bothers me is this attitude:
_“What we really wanted to show the car industry is that it is possible to create a compelling electric car at a compelling price,” Musk said. “We hope the industry will follow our lead.”_
First of all, $50k is not a compelling price. I’m of average means. I’m not going to spend $50k on any kind of car, electric or gas. But worse, why does the car have to be “compelling” in the sense of “sexy”?
What would compell me to buy an electric car, which I’d like to do very much, would be the electric equivalent of a Honda Civic, Toyota Tercell or Nissan Sentra.
It doesn’t have to be sexy. I don’t care what color it is. It doesn’t have to achieve 60 mph in under 4 seconds.
When it comes to cars, I’m a substance over form kinda guy. Going 300 or more miles on a charge is compelling. Low maintenance and reliability is compelling. Could you just go for that and not focus so much on the cosmetics and sound system? That might lower the price, and I would consider buying one.
What makes this a conditional Pitting is that I’m willing to be convinced that it is necessary to jumpstart the electric car business by appealing to the high end first. I’d find that irritating, if true, but could live with it. Also, I realize it’s new technology, and that costs money.
But I have to wonder, aren’t there other people like me who can do without the frills if it would bring the cost down to an affordable level sooner?
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### Author:  [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/2 "2009-03-27T02:03:20Z")
I’m on your side on this one, but for slightly different reasons. I DO care very much about the aesthetics of a car, but I prefer aesthetics that are simple and minimalist, NOT flashy, curvy and slick-looking. I would kill for an electric car that looked EXACTLY like the old 1980s Honda CRX. What’s wrong with having simple, straight lines?
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/3 "2009-03-27T02:03:26Z")
Do you own a Prius now? Why not? What would it take for a Prius to be worth your while?
As for me, yes, money is a big issue. I’d settle for any decent stereo that my iPod would plug into, a two seater would work, and some decent trunk space.
I’d settle for a 300 mile range, 500 would be a lot better. I don’t want to have to stop driving and wait for hours because the charge runs out. I suppose a battery swap out would be ok too, but that’s a whole lot of infrastructure that won’t happen soon. If I have to stop midday to recharge, it better not take more than 30-45 minutes. That’s about the time it would take me to eat a decent meal, stretch and strolll a bit, etc.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/4 "2009-03-27T02:13:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Do you own a Prius now?
Not op, but…
A Prius, or preferable Volt if available, are like my biggest motivators to finish college and have money. I want one so hard.
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### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/5 "2009-03-27T02:40:04Z")
I don’t understand what you want from Tesla.
They make electric cars, for which there isn’t a huge market. The few people that are actively seeking out electric cars are looking to buy electric cars, for enviro reasons or for cost reasons or novelty, etc.
There is, however, a huge market for “just cars”. Some people might be all about economics and utility. Others want something that is safe for the kids. Many people want something sporty and fun to drive. Lots of folks want a car that makes other people envious.
So Tesla is not marketing “an electric car”. They are marketing a car that happens to be electric. Same reason explains hybrid SUVs, diesel Mercs, and flexfuel pickups.
It might be your personal preference for non-flashy, utilitarian grocery getters, but, perhaps thankfully, there exist a wide variety of preferences and Tesla is attempting to appeal to the ones that they think will sell the most cars.
And hey, when electric cars get a lot of representation in the market because they are trendy, it will mean more models of car and lower prices.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/6 "2009-03-27T03:02:46Z")
So let me get this straight, you are pitting Tesla motors for making a pretty car?
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### Author:  [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/7 "2009-03-27T03:13:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> yes, money is a big issue.
It’s as big an issue for the customer as it is for the manufacturer. This tech is _not_ cheap. While obviously things will improve with time, now is not the future and right now batteries capable of giving you anything close to a reasonable range are quite expensive.
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> I’d settle for a 300 mile range, 500 would be a lot better. I don’t want to have to stop driving and wait for hours because the charge runs out.
300 is a pipe dream, 500 is passing out and drowning in your own vomit.
Not gonna happen. Tesla’s specs are hugely optimistic (if you followed the development of their first car, you’d agree). This new sedan will be much much heavier than the Lotus Elise-based original; that is not good for mileage.
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> A Prius, or preferable Volt if available, are like my biggest motivators to finish college and have money. I want one so hard.
And the Volt is going to cost you several pennies. GM is aiming at mid-30s. You can get a lot of car for that much. Mid-30k certainly doesn’t sound like an economy car to me.
At least in the beginning, Toyota was losing money on each Prius. They chose to eat the cost to get the brand recognition (smart move, IMO), but this hides the real cost from the consumer who now has incredibly high expectations on an incredibly low price.
> [@ivn1188](#):
>
> I don’t understand what you want from Tesla.
>
> They make electric cars, for which there isn’t a huge market.
As much as the OP may want one, this is the reality. Electric vehicles are still under-delivering on range promises, they still have a lot of kinks to be worked out, and at the end of the day it still takes a significant amount of time to refill. If you think that’s not an issue, consider driving from one side of your state to the other. Maybe you’ll just get lunch while it charges.
> [@ivn1188](#):
>
> So Tesla is not marketing “an electric car”. They are marketing a car that happens to be electric.
Exactly right, Tesla is marketing a brand. They are building their name and reputation.
> [@ivn1188](#):
>
> It might be your personal preference for non-flashy, utilitarian grocery getters, but, perhaps thankfully, there exist a wide variety of preferences and Tesla is attempting to appeal to the ones that they think will sell the most cars.
And Tesla is right. The reason why they’re able to even think about a $50k entry point is that a full-featured luxury sedan will sell a ton more than their first stripped down utilitarian sports car. To get down to the $20k bargain bin, they’d need to be aiming at Civic sales numbers, and that’s just not even close to realistic, no matter how bad you want one.
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/8 "2009-03-27T03:28:56Z")
Going from a few hundred vehicles per year to hundreds of thousands in one jump seems pretty much an insurmountable hurdle for any new vehicle line, especially for an independent. While I’m not familiar with their long-term plans, Tesla seems to be following a fairly common marketing path, and one that is probably the only reasonable chance for success where a largely different powertrain technology is involved: start with a limited production sports model to establish a manufacturing system and the nameplate, incrementally increase production with a model that is still high-end but appeals to a wider range of buyers, and eventually go mass market if and when revenue allows development of less expensive cars with lower margins. The risk, near as I can see it, is one of the big globals, with deeper pockets, developing a mass-market Li-ion powertrain before Tesla can take that last step.
Realistically, I’d guess it will take two or three more design generations (maybe 10-15 years?) before Tesla could go truly mass-market, assuming no major hiccups in manufacture or reliability.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/9 "2009-03-27T03:33:34Z")
> [@Discipline](#):
>
> And the Volt is going to cost you several pennies. GM is aiming at mid-30s. You can get a lot of car for that much. Mid-30k certainly doesn’t sound like an economy car to me.
And for the vast majority of my traveling I’ll have a functionally electric car, with a hybrid engine (read built in generator) if I need to go farther then battery range.
Know any other cars that can do that?
edit: not hating on the Tesla, just addressing the comment.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/10 "2009-03-27T03:41:06Z")
[Autoblog Green](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/#continued) has a lot more info on this car. It’s worse than the OP said - if I read that correctly, the 300-mile range is for an upgraded model, and the $50k (after $7500 tax break) base model is only rated for 160 miles.
My money’s on the [Aptera](http://www.aptera.com/) (though not literally, as they won’t accept a deposit from anyone outside California). This seems like a more sensible approach. Purely electric cars are inherently limited in range, so it makes sense to optimize it as a 2-seater commuting/in-town vehicle. And it is far more efficient than the Tesla. The base spec Tesla S has a 42kWh battery and manages 160 mile range; the Aptera 2 has a 10~13 kWh\* battery and they claim a 100-mile range. This of course is due to the lighter weight and the superior aerodynamics of the Aptera; the Tesla-S is less aerodynamic than the Prius (Cd=0.27 claimed for Tesla S vs. 0.26 for Prius), the Aptera’s Cd is far better (Cd=0.15).
\*Admittedly I can only find that info on [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_hybrid_car), uncited.
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### Author:  [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/11 "2009-03-27T03:52:31Z")
It’s the way of all technology. how much did the first flat screen televisions cost? About as much as a car, right? It took nearly ten years and now you can walk into Walmart and pick one up for under $500 (if you want a cheap, small one.) How much did the first DVD players cost? early desktop computers? It’s always the same.
When you choose to adopt any new technology there is always a trade off. If you want in early you pay a premium in price and the risk that the technology may not be fully supported later (HD-DVD and Beta anyone?) If you jump in later you get to pay less but you loose out on the early adopter cache and benefits (lower energy costs for the e-car buyers.)
Tesla is following all the successful technology models. I’m rooting for them all the way and I can’t wait to see zero emission vehicles get cheap enough for me to own.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/12 "2009-03-27T03:53:04Z")
160 miles is plenty for day to day commuting.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/13 "2009-03-27T04:00:17Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> 160 miles is plenty for day to day commuting.
Yeah, but that puts it into the “2nd car” category, this for your commuting, and a “real” car for longer trips. I suppose a good number of families could affod that, but I couldn’t. And I have to have a longer range than that if it’s my only vehicle.
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### Author:  [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/14 "2009-03-27T04:01:48Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#):
>
> This is a conditional Pitting.
>
> Tesla Motors, one of Elon Musk’s companies, is putting out their second electric car:
>
> [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts\_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead\_20090326224034](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead_20090326224034)
>
> The first one, a two-seater could accelerate rapidly, go for a good while on a charge, and costs over $100k. This new one is a sedan, also does pretty well on a charge, and will go for around $50k, not counting incentives.
>
> What bothers me is this attitude:
>
> _“What we really wanted to show the car industry is that it is possible to create a compelling electric car at a compelling price,” Musk said. “We hope the industry will follow our lead.”_
>
> First of all, $50k is not a compelling price. I’m of average means. I’m not going to spend $50k on any kind of car, electric or gas. But worse, why does the car have to be “compelling” in the sense of “sexy”?
>
> What would compell me to buy an electric car, which I’d like to do very much, would be the electric equivalent of a Honda Civic, Toyota Tercell or Nissan Sentra.
>
> It doesn’t have to be sexy. I don’t care what color it is. It doesn’t have to achieve 60 mph in under 4 seconds.
>
> When it comes to cars, I’m a substance over form kinda guy. Going 300 or more miles on a charge is compelling. Low maintenance and reliability is compelling. Could you just go for that and not focus so much on the cosmetics and sound system? That might lower the price, and I would consider buying one.
>
> What makes this a conditional Pitting is that I’m willing to be convinced that it is necessary to jumpstart the electric car business by appealing to the high end first. I’d find that irritating, if true, but could live with it. Also, I realize it’s new technology, and that costs money.
>
> But I have to wonder, aren’t there other people like me who can do without the frills if it would bring the cost down to an affordable level sooner?
1. Saying that the price is “compelling” is marketing. You can’t pit marketing. It’s like pitting a company for saying their pizza is “tasty.”
2. The cost of manufacturing something doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the price it is sold for. Rather, an item sells for whatever the market thinks it is worth, and the manufacturer works to build it for an acceptable amount less than that. Therefore, your assumption that they could eliminate some frills and reduce the price is looking at it from an odd angle. Maybe they could cut the price in half and make a profit if they sold enough, or maybe they’ll never make a profit (and want to just create buzz for the next car or sell new batteries at a profit or something, I don’t know).
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### Author:  [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/15 "2009-03-27T04:02:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> edit: not hating on the Tesla, just addressing the comment.
That doesn’t address the comment at all.
How far can you drive on $15,000 worth of gas?
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/16 "2009-03-27T04:11:24Z")
There are lots of potential products coming down the pike. The initial trade-off may be range on all-electric vs cost.
Certainly many majors besides GM have vehicles in the works that have some EV capacity - the Prius is going come out in a PHEV release, [Hyundai](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/03/hyundai-to-reveal-plugin-hybrid-concept-at-seoul-show.html) is showing a concept vehicle, and on and on. You have the Chinese battery maker [BYD](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/01/byd-shows-produ.html) releasing one soon too. And for a pure BEV commuter [Think](http://www.auto-power-girl.com/cars-news/2009/03/14/ford/2107/evmaker_think_building_city_car_in_america.html) may end up being a good way to go.
My money will be waiting to see what [Bright Automotive](http://cleantech.com/news/4254/stealthy-bright-automotive-gives-hi) will come up with though. The Aptera is just a bit too much of a design statement for my taste.
> [@](#):
>
> … has created buzz because of its origins in the consulting organization Rocky Mountain Institute and the track record of CEO John Waters, who invented the battery pack system for General Motors’ EV1 electric vehicle, which was discontinued after three years in 1999.
>
> Bright Vice President of Marketing Lyle Shuey told the Cleantech Group that the company has designed the vehicle from scratch, using lightweight materials, aerodynamic shapes, low-resistance tires, and highly efficient battery and drivetrain systems.
>
> “In order to make a plug-in hybrid cost-effective, a person must look at the entire vehicle structure,” Shuey said today. “The aerodynamics, all the platform efficiencies, and the most important thing is mass. Every gram of mass increases the size and cost of the battery.”
>
> Bright says low-resistance tires can improve fuel economy by 6 percent to 9 percent, and a 10 percent weight reduction improves fuel efficiency by 7 percent. Bright is working to replace steel with strong lightweight materials. In all, the company is seeking to reduce vehicle weight by more than half, allowing it to use smaller and less costly batteries.
>
> Shuey said the company is still “looking at multiple battery cell technologies around the world” to power the car, which Bright says will have an electric range of 30 miles and a full range of 400 miles.
30 will cover my usual daily commute on all electric and 400 on a tank is just fine. [This link](http://www.mnn.com/transportation/cars/blogs/the-future-is-bright-a-first-look-at-a-new-plug-in-hybrid) has a teaser of a car under wraps but actual looks and target price will presumably be revealed in May.
Tesla got people to perceive EVs as other than golf carts and for that we all owe a debt. But the demographic for a $50K vehicle that is of limited utility is not the everyman.
---
### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/17 "2009-03-27T04:23:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> My money will be waiting to see what [Bright Automotive](http://cleantech.com/news/4254/stealthy-bright-automotive-gives-hi) will come up with though. The Aptera is just a bit too much of a design statement for my taste.
Has Bright released any drawings or photos? I would think any car optimized for efficiency would be very small, or have a radical aerodynamic shape (like the Aptera), or both. It’s certainly not going to look like a conventional car.
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### Author:  [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/18 "2009-03-27T04:34:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#):
>
> 1. Saying that the price is “compelling” is marketing. You can’t pit marketing. It’s like pitting a company for saying their pizza is “tasty.”
Hell yes, I can pit marketing. In a way, that’s all I really am pitting.
For someone like me, they can shitcan all the “extras”. Just give me a decent range and recharge rate, and make it an otherwise normal car at a normal price \*.
The fact that their first model was a sports car makes me think it’s more about attracting attention \* than making a useable product.
> [@Rand\_Rover](#):
>
> Maybe they could cut the price in half and make a profit if they sold enough…
That’s what I had in mind. And BTW, isn’t that the whole idea of mass production?
- I’ve acknowledged in the OP that there are realities of the marketplace that I may not know about, and that new technologies require investment. I’m not saying there should be no such thing as marketing, and I understand start-ups face a challenging situation.
I also acknowledge that I personally am not representative of everyone. But I DO believe there are enough people like me that would buy a good, basic electric car to justify going that route instead of starting with luxury models.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/19 "2009-03-27T04:47:15Z")
It occurs to me that there _was_ an inexpensive no-frills electric car: the [Corbin Sparrow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers_Motors_NmG). In 2000 it was available new for $14,000. The company went bankrupt in 2003. So maybe that wasn’t a very good strategy?
(The car is back in production now, but now costs $30,000.)
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/20 "2009-03-27T04:48:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> Yeah, but that puts it into the “2nd car” category, this for your commuting, and a “real” car for longer trips. I suppose a good number of families could affod that, but I couldn’t. And I have to have a longer range than that if it’s my only vehicle.
No, it puts the other car in the 2nd car category. The first car is the one you drive every day. If you are driving more than 160 miles at a clip you could always rent a car. Not everyone drives more than 160 miles per day, in fact not even most people do. My Father lives in New Mexico and commutes 30 miles each way plus driving around a lot. On an average day 160 miles would be plenty. There are some days where it’s not enough, but in reality the vast majority of daily driving by the vast majority of people is less than 160 miles.
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