# Tesla Motors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941 "2009-03-27T01:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/41 "2009-03-27T15:12:24Z")
Not quite that simple. You can put E85 in a regular underground gasoline storage tank and pump it out of regular gasoline pumps. You can’t do that with liquified hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/42 "2009-03-27T15:13:22Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Any smart operator in times like these would be planning to upgrade current electrical service to support plug-in vehicles, adding “lounge” space for plug-in folks to wait (and buy goodies) and setting space aside for CNG/Ethanol/Hydrogen delivery. There’s a gas station near my house that I’ve never stopped at, but it boasts not only an ice cream shop, but a Mediterranean restaurant as well. Especially as the price of gas goes up and businesses become more centralized than they are now, this sort of conglomeration would be a win-win for everyone involved. Stop in and recharge in more ways than one. Heck, they already have truck stops; this would just be an extension of that to non-commercial drivers. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/43 "2009-03-27T15:17:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not quite that simple. You can put E85 in a regular underground gasoline storage tank and pump it out of regular gasoline pumps. > > You can’t do that with liquified hydrogen. Yeah, and all it requires is that you use MORE power from regular gasoline than you get from the Ethanol, what a bargain right? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/44 "2009-03-27T15:19:30Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > There’s a gas station near my house that I’ve never stopped at, but it boasts not only an ice cream shop, but a Mediterranean restaurant as well. Especially as the price of gas goes up and businesses become more centralized than they are now, this sort of conglomeration would be a win-win for everyone involved. Stop in and recharge in more ways than one. > > Heck, they already have truck stops; this would just be an extension of that to non-commercial drivers. Or even better, have it become a standard feature of parking lots and parking meters that you can plug your car into them. So while you are shopping at Wal Mart your car gets fueled. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/45 "2009-03-27T15:19:31Z")
Plus if you’re talking battery talking rather than recharging, that means a whole lot more storage space for replacement batteries, psobably some specialized lifting equipment, and specially trained personnel to do it. This would be the option if recharging can’t be done fast enough, but “fast enough” would be subject to a lot of debate. For me, an hour would be the outside limit if I’m in the midst of a road trip. OTOH, in a place with cars lined up for battery swaps, it might take an hour for me to get through the line. I wonder how long a battery swap takes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/46 "2009-03-27T15:20:36Z")
Why on Earth would it take an hour to swap a battery? Why on Earth would it need specialized training? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/47 "2009-03-27T15:32:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Compare it to the price point competition: [the Lexus GS](http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/features/performance.html). About the same acceleration. Cooler looks. Much less cost of ownership especially if gas gets back up to $4/gallon or more. For someone considering a car in this price range, is cost of ownership really a big consideration? Even if gas price goes up to $4 and _stays_ there, and you own the car for 100,000 miles, you’re looking at $16,000 worth of gas. Compared to about $5000 worth of electricity for the Tesla-S - that’s assuming Tesla’s claim for the range and **current** electricity rate in Northeastern states (NY, MA, etc), and assuming 80% charging efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/48 "2009-03-27T15:38:49Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > For someone considering a car in this price range, is cost of ownership really a big consideration? Even if gas price goes up to $4 and _stays_ there, and you own the car for 100,000 miles, you’re looking at $16,000 worth of gas. Compared to about $5000 worth of electricity for the Tesla-S - that’s assuming Tesla’s claim for the range and **current** electricity rate in Northeastern states (NY, MA, etc), and assuming 80% charging efficiency. If that’s a ten year ownership (10kmiles per year), you’re talking about a thousand dollar savings a year. Something tells me, though, that a 100k car buyer buys more frequently than every ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/49 "2009-03-27T15:43:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why on Earth would it take an hour to swap a battery? Why on Earth would it need specialized training? How heavy are the batteries? I would assume you would need winches, and training on them, and perhaps on the locations of connecting bolts what would need to be taken off and on. Not a LOT of training, but some. Maybe I have a wrong mental picture of this, but I would expect this to be a much more complex deal than changing a flashlight battery, even though the principle is identical. And no, I wouldn’t expect it to take an hour, but if there was one changing station and a line of cars waiting, the wait might be an hour. But I’m just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/50 "2009-03-27T15:44:39Z")
The problem with rapid recharge is that it is a huge amount of current. If a station is set up for it and doing lots of it they’ll need their own substation to handle the load and the increase on peak demand will risk brown-outs. Swap is planned to take about the same amount of time as a fill-up. Your inventory can be charged up in trough times to some degree anyway. I can also imagine a set-up in which a charging station rents roof space on a few nearby factories for banks of solar to provide for some that electricity which can charge up the inventory to some significant degree and use the grid only for the difference. They’d likely get some subsidies to set such a thing up and the green cred would attract some of the same early adopters that are willing to pay an EV premium too. Best yet is to charge at night timed to fill it up as off-peak as possible as much as possible. Really I do not see too many pure BEVs being used for road trips. **scr4** , I know people who are in that price range for autos and yeah, they care. It may be on the principal of it or bragging rights but they care. They’d calculate in the potential $11K savings into the choice and call a small premium a good investment. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/51 "2009-03-27T15:49:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why on Earth would it take an hour to swap a battery? Why on Earth would it need specialized training? It can take a half hour to get gas on the NJ Turnpike during a summer weekend, and it only takes 2 minutes to fill up a gas tank in cars that can go 400 miles on said tank. Take a battery swap, you’re exchanging a few hundred pounds of batteries, that are worth thousands of dollars. You’re going to need equipment and training to ensure they are connected up correctly, undamaged, and the worker isn’t going to need back surgery after working there a week. Forget charging, you’d need to hook the car up directly to an electrical substation to get a charge done in less than 10 minutes, and you wouldn’t even make it from one end of the Turnpike to the other without needing another 10 minute recharge. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/52 "2009-03-27T15:49:28Z")
[Project Better Place’s battery swap plans.](http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/battery-exchange-stations) And their concept for [charge spots](http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/charge-spots). (Not rapid charge - trickle but widely deployed.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/53 "2009-03-27T15:53:25Z")
Purely due to refuelling issues I’m becoming more and more convinced that hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/54 "2009-03-27T16:10:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > How heavy are the batteries? I would assume you would need winches, and training on them, and perhaps on the locations of connecting bolts what would need to be taken off and on. Not a LOT of training, but some. > > Maybe I have a wrong mental picture of this, but I would expect this to be a much more complex deal than changing a flashlight battery, even though the principle is identical. > > And no, I wouldn’t expect it to take an hour, but if there was one changing station and a line of cars waiting, the wait might be an hour. But I’m just guessing. It all depends on the design of the battery. The biggest problem for battery swapping will remain a lack of standardization in form factors. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/55 "2009-03-27T16:12:43Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It can take a half hour to get gas on the NJ Turnpike during a summer weekend, and it only takes 2 minutes to fill up a gas tank in cars that can go 400 miles on said tank. > > Take a battery swap, you’re exchanging a few hundred pounds of batteries, that are worth thousands of dollars. You’re going to need equipment and training to ensure they are connected up correctly, undamaged, and the worker isn’t going to need back surgery after working there a week. > > Forget charging, you’d need to hook the car up directly to an electrical substation to get a charge done in less than 10 minutes, and you wouldn’t even make it from one end of the Turnpike to the other without needing another 10 minute recharge. If they wired up the entire parking lot so that you just plugged in and swiped your credit card it wouldn’t matter. You’d go in and eat your Whopper and continue on to Cheesequake ;). As for swapping batteries out, if they became a real system there is no reason to believe that it would take more than 2 minutes to do so. A pully system and lead attachment is all you need. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/56 "2009-03-27T16:34:39Z")
> [@Discipline](#): > > That doesn’t address the comment at all. > > How far can you drive on $15,000 worth of gas? Yes, I should buy $15,000 worth of Global Warming fueling, environment destroying gas so I can send my money off to foreign countries, making people like [this evil sick fuck](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade) richer. In a just world he’d be brought to justice or atleast have anything of value leveled with cruise missiles, but right now he and his like our drug dealer and we gotta be nice or he cuts us off cold turkey. Oh and I’ll be at the mercy of oil prices. They go up again due to shortage, or the like, and ouch me. When the economy recovers they will bounce back up. Mark my words. I guess if I make the assumptions you appear to be making, where you don’t look beyond your own pocket book for damages your choices cause, or just assume volatile vital commodities, controlled by a region of the world that’s hostile, will stay cheap forever. Then yea I could get some escaladez. However since I actually value the environment, and the health and safety of my country, and want to work to minimize the damages I cause, as well as not be at the mercy so much of greedy bastards and evil terroristic fucks then I shall get a Volt, or Prius if a Volt isn’t an option. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/57 "2009-03-27T16:50:36Z")
Here’s a thought about recharging. I’ve read about engine heater blocks being ubiquitous in northern climes. So why not simply extend the principle to recharging? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/58 "2009-03-27T16:55:49Z")
Oh, [Ford](http://www.motortopia.com/blogs/view/t/garage/j/6384/i/fordmagna_bev) is also planning to offer commuter pure BEV by 2011. 100 mile range. Aim is for the “affordable” market segment. And they are bringing [Smiths EV delivery vans](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/09/ford-confirms-transit-connect-ev-with-smith-electric-for-2010/) over to sell as their own. We’ll see if pure BEV can sell in America. Like I’ve said, I can see a place for them, but I think that PHEVs and EREVs will probably deliver a better buy for the mass market until battery costs decrease a lot more. Meanwhile Tesla continues to create the image that EV = power and sexy and that will only help the future lower powered BEV commuter econoboxes sell easier. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/59 "2009-03-27T17:00:21Z")
And for the true cheap end of the market, not for a while in America, [Tata Motors](http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2008/09/tatas-ev-for-norway-market.html) is developing an EV as well. ---
**Author:** ![Discipline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/60 "2009-03-27T18:22:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Yes, I should buy $15,000 worth of Global Warming fueling, environment destroying gas so I can send my money off to foreign countries, making people like [this evil sick fuck](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/bae.armstrade) richer. In a just world he’d be brought to justice or atleast have anything of value leveled with cruise missiles, but right now he and his like our drug dealer and we gotta be nice or he cuts us off cold turkey. > > Oh and I’ll be at the mercy of oil prices. They go up again due to shortage, or the like, and ouch me. When the economy recovers they will bounce back up. Mark my words. > I guess if I make the assumptions you appear to be making, where you don’t look beyond your own pocket book for damages your choices cause, or just assume volatile vital commodities, controlled by a region of the world that’s hostile, will stay cheap forever. Then yea I could get some escaladez. > However since I actually value the environment, and the health and safety of my country, and want to work to minimize the damages I cause, as well as not be at the mercy so much of greedy bastards and evil terroristic fucks then I shall get a Volt, or Prius if a Volt isn’t an option. Wow, dude. Relax. Since the OP’s argument seemed to be largely about _monetary cost_, I was hoping to point out that the reality is that these things are expensive, and as other posters have pointed out above, nearly impossible to make in the economy car range. When we are talking about _money_, it makes sense to point out the cost of fuel. Yeah, gas could easily go back to $5/gal or worse and it likely will. And someday we’ll be reliant only on wind, solar and hydro-sourced power, but that day is not today. When the price of gas goes up, so will the price of electricity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941.md?page=4)