# Tesla Motors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941 "2009-03-27T01:23:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HumanMonkeyGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c67d28/32.png) [@HumanMonkeyGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanMonkeyGod)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/61 "2009-03-27T19:45:16Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > to jumpstart the electric car business by appealing to the high end first. I’d find that irritating, if true, but could live with it. Also, I realize it’s new technology, and that costs money. I can’t see that ever working. Electric is pretty much ingrained as an inferior option in every respect, so it should take the one advantage it’s got and run with it - economy. I think if this appealing to the upper end of the market had any value, the Prius would’ve sold a lot better than it has, and we might even have another common hybrid to name. I mean how old is the Prius now? 5-6 years? WHERE is its competition?? > [@mswas](#): > > So let me get this straight, you are pitting Tesla motors for making a pretty car? Maybe for not making a practical one, for choosing style over substance. In the current car market, economy is finally becoming a real consideration for Americans. The oil price is unlikely to stay so low, and the dollar even less likely to stay strong. The fuel price increases you saw a few years ago might be back with added spikiness, and having cheap practical transport will be understood to be more important than being a well-furnished second apartment on wheels. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/62 "2009-03-27T19:47:01Z")
It’s been said in this thread before, but I want to make it a little more clear. **The range of an electric car doesn’t matter much once it gets above 50 miles or so.** Let’s look at two drivers. One is a salesman who drives between several towns to make pitches, deliver products, etc. He drives a couple of hundred miles several times a week. The other driver is someone who lives not far from work, and drives to get groceries, go out to eat, or make a trip to the mall. She drives about 10-30 miles per day. Driver #1 will not buy an electric car. He isn’t going to pull into a roadside charging area and get his batteries changed or sit there plugging in. He’ll just buy a car that runs on gasoline, or whatever refueling system he likes. Driver #2 might be better off electric. She can recharge at night, paying very low costs/mile, and she doesn’t need to worry about recharging the car during her trip to McDonalds. For her, the cost of taking Amtrak or renting a car is less than the savings of electric. If we were planning on saying that only one type of power would be allowed for vehicles, then electric would be a poor choice. But we’ve never done this. you can buy electric cars now, you can get diesel, you can get gasoline, and you can get a host of other fuels, like propane and methanol. In fact the ONLY question that needs to be considered as a policy matter is how many people are driver #2, and how many are driver #1. If there are enough driver #2s in the world, we are done. We can sell cars to those people and ignore the first driver. For each driver, there are economic considerations, but they get to make those decisions on their own. Is the cost of gasoline worth the convenience? Is the performance adequate? Note that we already do this, which is why some people drive econoboxes and others drive Caddies. Demanding that a single design makes sense for everyone is a false dichotomy; we don’t do that now, and haven’t ever done it. Gasoline cars can be a poor choice for a short range driver (I sold my cars and now use the bus). It’s just that gasoline is the only model we know so far. The upshot of this is that we don’t need a big electric recharging infrastructure. No one (sane) is suggesting we replace all gasoline cars with electric. We already have a good power grid which will do fine for daily drivers charging at off-peak times. The same thing applies to e85 (but not hydrogen!). There’s absolutely no reason why we have to pick a single “best” technology now, when we never have before. There are at least 4 posters in this thread alone who would consider buying an electric car – it’s not as if they are relegated to some tiny niche that will never be profitable and it’s not as if we’re going to come take your Suburban away and force you to drive an electric eggbeater. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/63 "2009-03-27T19:55:19Z")
> [@Discipline](#): > > Wow, dude. Relax. > > Since the OP’s argument seemed to be largely about _monetary cost_, I was hoping to point out that the reality is that these things are expensive, and as other posters have pointed out above, nearly impossible to make in the economy car range. When we are talking about _money_, it makes sense to point out the cost of fuel. > > Yeah, gas could easily go back to $5/gal or worse and it likely will. And someday we’ll be reliant only on wind, solar and hydro-sourced power, but that day is not today. When the price of gas goes up, so will the price of electricity. Sorry if I came down on you like a ton of bricks over what appears to be a communications break down. I just find the current situation to be very angering on principle anyway. Then last summer was horrid for me due to gas price caused troubles so yea. Anyway the poster I quoted was talking about needed features more then money, and if you read the OP you’ll notice the OP is talking about the cost of luxury vs utility. I think what you’re forgetting is electric can also come from coal, natural gas, and nuclear. Which the vast majority of does. Oil is less then 2%. So how much do you think a rise in oil prices going to affect the cost of current? cite: [http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html](http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html) Crunching the 2007 numbers in Excel for percents yields. Coal:48.51% Natural Gas:21.57% Nuclear:19.40% **Top three total:89.48%** Hydroelectric Conventional:5.95% Other Renewables:2.53% **Petroleum:1.58%** Other Gases:0.32% Other:0.29% Hydroelectric Pumped Storage:-0.17% Now consider efficiency. Hybrids, and electricity use energy much more efficiently then pure combustion engines. Also running electricy makes energy sources vastly more adabtable. You can plug an electric engine into nuclear, you can plug it into coal, biomass, solar, wind. It doesn’t care as long as the electricity is with in it’s designed voltage and amperage range. This means we’re not licking the Saudi’s ass for dino juice. No OPEC monopoly able to raise our transport costs on a whim. So explain to me again why an electric, or plugin hybrid car owner should worry too much about a rise in the cost of gas? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/64 "2009-03-27T20:19:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not quite that simple. You can put E85 in a regular underground gasoline storage tank and pump it out of regular gasoline pumps. > > You can’t do that with liquified hydrogen. No, but you can put a storage tank of liquified hydrogen on the gas station property and add a pump to pump it out and add trucks to deliver it to the stations the same way gas/diesel is delivered today. Add a covered port to put your plug-in car inside of to charge and you have a full-service refueling station, zero infrastructure (outside of manufacture) needed. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/65 "2009-03-27T20:23:45Z")
> [@HumanMonkeyGod](#): > > Electric is pretty much ingrained as an inferior option in every respect … You really _don’t_ know what you are talking about, do you? It is pretty much superior in every respect _except_ two and one of those is the single one you grant it: right now batteries are expensive enough that pure BEVs will cost more, unless gas prices go up substantially from here. And the infrastructure to allow for cross country travel is not there for pure BEV. Otherwise electricity is superior in every other way. Less emissions, more energy independence, less maintenance costs, great performance, etc., etc, etc. **ivn1188** , I will give one more person - the high mileage driver member of a fleet - taxicab, bus, garbage truck, delivery van etc. For those companies a fleet of EVs are a great choice, along with investing in a rapid recharge station or two for the fleet. A vehicle with enough battery capacity to handle a shift (say 200 miles or so) with a buffer that works mostly round the clock and that stops into the central charge point once per shift for a recharge. The cost of the battery is paid for with the cheaper fueling and decreased maintenance costs in fairly short order. It does require a significant initial investment however. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/66 "2009-03-27T20:59:15Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > This is a conditional Pitting. > > Tesla Motors, one of Elon Musk’s companies, is putting out their second electric car: > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts\_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead\_20090326224034](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090326/ts_afp/usautoteslaelectriclead_20090326224034) > > The first one, a two-seater could accelerate rapidly, go for a good while on a charge, and costs over $100k. This new one is a sedan, also does pretty well on a charge, and will go for around $50k, not counting incentives. > > What bothers me is this attitude: > > _“What we really wanted to show the car industry is that it is possible to create a compelling electric car at a compelling price,” Musk said. “We hope the industry will follow our lead.”_ > > First of all, $50k is not a compelling price. I’m of average means. I’m not going to spend $50k on any kind of car, electric or gas. But worse, why does the car have to be “compelling” in the sense of “sexy”? > > What would compell me to buy an electric car, which I’d like to do very much, would be the electric equivalent of a Honda Civic, Toyota Tercell or Nissan Sentra. > > It doesn’t have to be sexy. I don’t care what color it is. It doesn’t have to achieve 60 mph in under 4 seconds. > > When it comes to cars, I’m a substance over form kinda guy. Going 300 or more miles on a charge is compelling. Low maintenance and reliability is compelling. Could you just go for that and not focus so much on the cosmetics and sound system? That might lower the price, and I would consider buying one. > > What makes this a conditional Pitting is that I’m willing to be convinced that it is necessary to jumpstart the electric car business by appealing to the high end first. I’d find that irritating, if true, but could live with it. Also, I realize it’s new technology, and that costs money. > > But I have to wonder, aren’t there other people like me who can do without the frills if it would bring the cost down to an affordable level sooner? ISTM that if they want the technology to gain rapid acceptance (and from there get to mass consumption and lowered production costs), there’s a tried-and true method of doing that. They need to find a way to fit the tech to the delivery of explicit, high-quality, high convenience porn. Look what it did for the VCR, the Laserdisc, and the DVD. I have no idea how this could be done. But then, _I’m_ not the freakin’ engineer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/67 "2009-03-27T21:06:24Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > They need to find a way to fit the tech to the delivery of explicit, high-quality, high convenience porn. Look what it did for the VCR, the Laserdisc, and the DVD. > > I have no idea how this could be done. But then, _I’m_ not the freakin’ engineer. This folks is an example of a very good pun. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/68 "2009-03-27T21:10:34Z")
Woulda been an even better example if I’d said I’m not the _fucking_ engineer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/69 "2009-03-27T21:12:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Woulda been an even better example if I’d said I’m not the _fucking_ engineer. Yes. How could you let us down like that?☹ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/70 "2009-03-27T21:17:16Z")
Scruples. Besides, **luci** ’s been sniffin’ around this corner of the Pit lately, and you know how he gets. I don’t need my neck stretched this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![HumanMonkeyGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c67d28/32.png) [@HumanMonkeyGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanMonkeyGod)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/71 "2009-04-06T20:44:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You really _don’t_ know what you are talking about, do you? Go read what I said again. See that collection of characters “ingrained”? I didn’t say electric _is_ inferior, I implied that is the consumer’s preconceived notion. See the difference? [QUOTE=DSeid] one of those is the single one you grant it: right now batteries are expensive enough [/quote] I didn’t say anything about batteries, I said the electric car’s advantage is that they’re economical, and then you listed some reasons why. 😕 _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/72 "2009-04-06T21:42:39Z")
Solar paneled garages would be suitable. Cost would drop a bit. The battery packs iI have seen on TV show a series of smaller batteries connected. It would not require changing them in a heavy chunk, but one at a time might be manageable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/73 "2009-04-06T23:12:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I would kill for an electric car Then you’ll end up as the subject of the future documentary _Who Killed (for) the Electric Car?_ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/74 "2009-04-06T23:22:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Solar paneled garages would be suitable. Cost would drop a bit. > The battery packs iI have seen on TV show a series of smaller batteries connected. It would not require changing them in a heavy chunk, but one at a time might be manageable. A friend of mine on another forum made a great post about how the growth of the solar industry has been unprecedented recently. That it grew 110% in the last year alone after having steady explosive growth for about ten years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/75 "2009-04-07T01:48:51Z")
> [@HumanMonkeyGod](#): > > Go read what I said again. See that collection of characters “ingrained”? I didn’t say electric _is_ inferior, I implied that is the consumer’s preconceived notion. See the difference? > > I didn’t say anything about batteries, I said the electric car’s advantage is that they’re economical, and then you listed some reasons why. 😕 _shrug_ Somehow your _implication_ that it is consumer’s preconceived notions that are “ingrained” was less than clear. And my point is that they are _not_ currently economical - which the one thing you say they are (or that people somehow believe they are). You didn’t mention batteries? Who the hell cares if you mentioned them or not? The reason EVs are not yet economical is the cost of the batteries. Unless you have some damn long extension cords you need them and you need to pay for them. In pretty much every _other_ way than being economical EVs are superior. That and appropriateness for long distance travel. If your point was that you believe the public has this false preconceived notion that EVs are inferior but cheap vehicles (so that should be the kind of vehicle manufacturers deliver) … well I think that such a notion is less common since Tesla came on the scene and will be dispelled completely as they actually see real EVs on the road. There is a place for the low power EVs - [Neighborhood Electric Vehicles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_electric_vehicle) they are called - that are cheap and cannot be driven on roads that have a speed limit over 35mph by law. But that niche is even smaller than Tesla’s high performance segment. If Tesla sold as many vehicles as Toyota sells of Prius they’d be thrilled, and relatively Prius aint high end. There is big difference between a car that sells for $22 to 25K, and one that sells for more than twice as much. And in who buys them. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/76 "2009-04-07T03:22:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, it puts the other car in the 2nd car category. The first car is the one you drive every day. If you are driving more than 160 miles at a clip you could always rent a car. Not everyone drives more than 160 miles per day, in fact not even most people do. My Father lives in New Mexico and commutes 30 miles each way plus driving around a lot. On an average day 160 miles would be plenty. There are some days where it’s not enough, but in reality the vast majority of daily driving by the vast majority of people is less than 160 miles. I love how people in this thread are using the 160 mile (or 300 mile) figure as being engraved in stone, and anything \<160 as being a walk in the park. 159 mile trip NO Problem! Yeah right. Have none of you ever heard the term **YMMV**? Range is always expressed in the most favorable terms. Think downhill with a tailwind. I would be willing to be that in the real world with stop and go traffic, the need for a heater or AC you would find that 160 mile range cut by maybe 50% Maybe more. Search you tube for the Top Gear [episode](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgD6wharTb8) on the Tesla. They didn’t get anywhere near the published range. 200 miles? Try 53. (about 4:40 in) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/77 "2009-04-07T03:27:01Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > They didn’t get anywhere near the published range. 200 miles? Try 53. (about 4:40 in) They were also throwing it around a test track (okay, airfield) at high speed. Not exactly a real-world scenario. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/78 "2009-04-07T04:03:26Z")
**Rick** : What is your point? The average driving distance a day is less than 40 miles, and I think 90% of people drive less than 20 a day. Mileage will vary, but it’s not going to vary from (say) a 300 mile range to a 18 mile range and leave you stranded if you hit an extra couple of stoplights. No one is advocating using electric vehicles to replace all other fuels. It’s a product for a (huge) niche: the daily driver. And it’s a contender because your price per mile is going to be a lot cheaper than it is for gasoline. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/79 "2009-04-07T15:55:40Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > **Rick** : What is your point? The average driving distance a day is less than 40 miles, and I think 90% of people drive less than 20 a day. Mileage will vary, but it’s not going to vary from (say) a 300 mile range to a 18 mile range and leave you stranded if you hit an extra couple of stoplights. > > No one is advocating using electric vehicles to replace all other fuels. It’s a product for a (huge) niche: the daily driver. And it’s a contender because your price per mile is going to be a lot cheaper than it is for gasoline. And of course the pollution would be much less. I wonder how electric cars will work in very hot or cold climates ? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941/80 "2009-04-07T20:56:14Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > **Rick** : What is your point? The average driving distance a day is less than 40 miles, and I think 90% of people drive less than 20 a day. Mileage will vary, but it’s not going to vary from (say) a 300 mile range to a 18 mile range and leave you stranded if you hit an extra couple of stoplights. It matters when talking about rapid charging stations or switching out battery packs. An electric car that actually has a 150+ (ideally, 250+) mile range and can be charged/battery swapped in 10 minutes or so is a reasonable alternative to an IC car for long trips. It’s not quite as convenient, but it’s not a total dog. One that goes \< 100 miles between charges is unlikely to be considered at all for anything outside of a normal commute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tesla-motors/490941.md?page=5)