If the research doesn’t result in widely usable technology, then it is wasted. There’s an awful lot of money being poured into developing a crappier (but more eco-friendly) mousetrap.
You still need to somehow convince people that it’s smart to pay $20,000 for a car that can only putter around town, when they could pay $20,000 for a car that can drive them anywhere.
You need to convince people that the fuel savings from a car that travels 5,000 miles a year is significant, even though it isn’t.
I don’t feel as though the pro-electric vehicle folks are looking at the technology with an appropriate level of critical thought.
The Tao’s Revenge, the 35kWh figure is before engine losses, so it’s appropriate to adjust the figures by the 25% efficiency. Another way I like to think about it is a gasoline powered car can get a 40 mile “charge” in about 10 seconds, and the electric vehicle proponents are talking about a 10 minute charge as something really great they think they can do in the future.
Omniscient is right. You need to work on your reading comprehension.
Smart cars, umm in case you haven’t noticed they have an internal combustion engine. Therefore they the heat byproduct from internal combustion to heat the car. The engine has three cylinders to be exact. Also they aren’t selling.
We have an 08 smart car on our used car lot that I got to drive. What a piece of shit. This car is such a piece of shit, the owner traded it in with 2,100 miles to buy a real car. nobody is even looking at it. Ask me in forty five days or so and I can tell you if it sold, or we had to wholesale it.
The volt goes the first 40 miles on electric. Fine what happens at mile 41? Are you walking or using an internal combustion engine?
Neither one of those vehicles is what I would use as an example of real world functionality for an all electric car. Particularly since one of your two examples is not even an electric car. :smack:
I have nothing against an electric car. I am just a realist that lives in a real world, and works with real cars and understands that until these cars are on the ground and being driven by real people on real highways, many of these mileage claims are pure vaporware.
For all you know, these mileage claims might be inflated by 80%. for all I know, they might be unstated by 50%. But I got $5 bucks that says they are not understated.
I do not think GM would risk the Volt with overstating the range. If they ran down in 10 miles there would be a large public noise and they would quit selling. The risk is too great.
Again you are missing my point. The Volt is not an all electric car. It is a hybrid. It has an internal combustion engine.
So using the Volt as an example to hype pure electric cars is not exactly the smartest move.
Rick, out of curiosity, have the hybrids out now created any real issues for mechanics? Did you have to spend much time and energy getting up to speed on the technologies?
Why not. If you travel less than 40 miles a day ,it will be all electric. Claims are that over 80 % of the people drive less than 40 miles a day. Many would be driving on electricity all the time.
Because the primary problem with an “all electric vehicle” is, and has always been, what happens when the battery runs out. If the answer is “start up the gasoline engine” then there’s no problem, but there’s also no “all electric vehicle” to talk about, because we’re now talking about a Plug In Hybrid.
All this talk about 10 minute recharge, 300 mile ranges, battery swaps and passive recharging stations are only relevant if these electric cars don’t have gas engine backups. If every battery powered car had a gas engine backup, then there would be no need for any fancy recharging technology, you just plug in overnight, use a regular 220V 30A outlet and you’re in business.
From a utility standpoint there is very little to dislike about Plug In Hybrids, you get your electric car performance for short distance driving, and don’t have the inherent distance limitations of a battery only design. Whether or not it can be done cost effectively is another matter, since the car does have two distinct power sources.
Yes a number of issues. Safety being the primary one. Special certifications are required. The voltages involved can kill, unlike a 12V battery. Also the regenerative brakes are totally new and require different service procedures. One model hybrid requires the use of a computer scan tool to tell the computer that the car is getting new pads so it can reset the systems involved. Say goodbye to the DIY brake job.
Regenerative braking is a huge thing. For years I would muse if some type of flywheel could capture all that braking energy before the advent of all this electric/battery talk. I’d be very curious to see what the state of those technologies are and how successful they are.
There are issues for fire and emergency personnel if a hybrid is involved in an accident. You can’t start hosing water onto a burning hybrid or you risk electrocution. There are also some hazmat concerns. I can’t speak with any real knowledge about these issues, but I have a fireman friend who told me he was going off to get some special training.
TL;DR version: Unless you’re Zeus, it’s alot easier to go wondering back down the highway with a gas can after you miscalculate then with a lightening bolt.
You’re just simply pulling facts out of your ass. Smartcars are not electric, as I well know. And your claims that they are crap are entirely subjective – people are driving them around. My neighbor has one. They are extremely common in London. They are small lightweight efficient gasoline engine vehicles, proof that your only options are not “electric” or “SUV”.
Yet again, neither of you has said anything but “What if electrics don’t get more than 40 miles of range?”
Yet, you yourself posted about the Tesla roadster, that got a 55 mile range, under racetrack conditions. The BMW m3 gets about 8-12 MPG under those conditions, the Lambos get 5 or so, and Porches get 10ish. So if the efficiency of a car is cut by 66% at racetrack speeds from ordinary driving, why are you so sure that the Tesla, and any MORE advanced electric cars, won’t be able to get 150 miles on a charge when driven normally?
Ominiscient’s facepalm snark about reading aside, yes, we’ve all read the thread. Do you have stats about how far most people drive? Estimates are that 90%+ people drive LESS than 40 miles a day. I’m damn sure they drive less than 300 +/ - 10%. Did you miss the several posts from people who actively want an electric car? Are we all stupid, and just can’t figure out that we have to watch our range? We don’t all feel the need to spend that extra money at the pump to be able to take off on a long roadtrip (or we know that we can rent a car if we need, or even better, we have 2 cars, which isn’t so farfetched).
So, Rick, I understand that you are skeptical of mileage claims. Again, I am asking you how it affects you other than possibly cutting down on the amount of repair work you do? Are you going to be forced to drive an electric? Are they going to confiscate and crush all other cars? Are you going to be personally required to go tow every electric that runs out of juice? What’s your beef? I’m not telling you to get one, I am telling you that I want one, or a Volt, which is a BEV with shorter range than most, that can charge itself with gasoline. I’m not too dumb to figure out I can’t drive to Vegas and back. So, why are you so pissy about the mere existence of electric vehicles?
A professional grade one at this point. In the future, who knows?
As I said upthread, you can’t call AAA and ask them to bring you a bucket of electrons.
Wait a minute, you are the one that to support the use of all electric cars used the example of a non electric car and a plug in hybrid, and I am pulling facts out of my ass? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Despite several posts to explain my position you still don’t get it. I will type this slowly to help you comprehend. Read for detail.
I have nothing against electric cars. I think hybrids are pretty damn cool. I have driven a Prius and an Escape and was very impressed with both.
My only point in posting here is to point out that until there are actual production cars on the ground, being driven by real people in the real world you have to take any of the manufacturer’s claims with a grain of salt. In some cases a 50 lb. sack might be more like it.
A claim of 160 mile range in the dead of winter at -25F in Chicago (where the battery only puts out maybe 20% of it original charge, and the driver is running the heater is pure vaporware. In those weather conditions you might be lucky to get 20 miles out of it. Maybe a bit more, but sure as hell you will not be going 160 miles in those conditions. Recharging will also take longer. There is also the danger of the batteries freezing. A frozen battery is ruined. So you will have to either park your electric inside an heat the garage, or put in some kind of battery warmer (which will use energy) To pretend otherwise is sticking your fingers in your ears and going LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I can’t hear you.
I also want to see what happens to that 160 miles range in say 1.5-2 hour bumper to bumper commute at 5-15 miles per hour in 100+F with the AC on. Again that will have a huge impact on range. how big I don’t know, but you ain’t going 160 miles in those conditions.
Who the fuck are you refuting? Did I miss a post in which someone claimed that those were the choices?
I’ve never said anything of the sort. Slow down and break out the dictionary if you must.
This is apropos of what exactly? Lambos and Porsches fit into this discussion how again?
What are you babbling about, son? Let’s see these stats, please. It may be true that “80% of people” commute less than 40 miles a day. That does not mean that 80% of people never drive more than 40 miles. Certainly there is a place for an electric car that you can commute with, NO ONE is claiming there isn’t.
However, there are some very serious technical limitations here. And battery technologies that claim to run a car for 160 miles on a single charge, without any context or operating ranges, are entirely meaningless. Is that in 75 degree weather with no accessories running? What proportion of that charge do you get in 0 degree temps? 100 degree? With a/c? With heat? What speed range? Is that 160 miles of open road or in real world traffic conditions?
Who is claiming anything like this? Who is hoping EVs fail? Who wants these guys to close up shop and go away? In short, who in the living fuck are you arguing with?
The whole point is that these cars AREN’T HERE YET. The marketing claims have yet to be realized and the details are curiously spotty, we are simply wise enough and savvy enough to realize this. You, however, seem so blinded with ad-speak, technobabble and vaporware that you have lost the capability of rational, critical thought. I think everyone here would love to have a EV that cost us a fraction of what we pay today in energy and were every bit as functional and reliable. But, sadly, they aren’t here yet and aren’t nearly as close as the media seems to be promoting. The obsession with the BEV and the imaginary idea that it’s some magic bullet to cure our ills by itself is foolish.
So, reading “slowly for detail” makes clear the following:
Your claim is, wait for it, “I don’t think electric cars will work (well if at all), and I won’t buy one until I see them do so/until they recharge instantly/ever”. Or “YMMV”. Or “Dude, you’re totally going to, like, run out of juice! Then you’re FUCKED!! GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!”
Truly earth-shattering. And obvious. And therefore useless.
Yet we have production electric cars. That work. We had the Saturn EV1 electric cars. That worked. The UK has electric delivery vans. That also work.
Top Gear. Tesla. Faster than a 911. 55 mile range under race conditions. It does seem highly likely that it won’t be able to get me to work and back without running out of juice. Especially in Chicago when it gets to -25f (which happens SOOOO often. Wind chill doesn’t affect metal). And hey, guess what? They are opening a dealership in Chicago and they work in the cold. LiON batteries are less susceptible to cold, and furthermore, it’s trivial to keep the batteries at a decent temperature when charging, and even when the car is just sitting if it is that cold.
But seriously, if all you are saying is “DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE, BRUTHA!”, why do you feel the need to say it so many times? And why do you care so much if I am nothing but a marketing-hype driven ecofruit hippe dumbass that thinks electric cars will make me shit rainbows and koalas as I chug frutopia and hump a tree?
Also, if you can’t understand how a hybrid that runs completely on battery power for the first 40 miles or so isn’t applicable to the range of pure electric cars with larger batteries, I don’t think you have much to contribute anyway.
Every single major technological problem with the electric car has to do with the fact that it is missing the utility of a gasoline engine. It’s missing the ability to refill the gas tank in 2 minutes so you can go another 300 miles. It requires you to have a second car and plan out your trips so you don’t get stranded. Hybrids have none of those problems because they have the gasoline engine that battery only vehicles don’t have.