# Test your BIBLE knowledge **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 11, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434 "2001-01-11T00:47:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/21 "2001-01-11T21:17:59Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by St. Attila \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Abraham was clearly worried about pissing God off, so he stopped at ten; he left God with what he felt was a strong enough implication, namely that if even one righteous person lived in the city, it would be spared. > > I don’t see why he would risk annoying God with this argument if it was out of curiousity rather than to spare Lot’s life. > \*\* Abraham wasn’t arguing with God out of curiosity. He was arguing with God because he wanted God to spare the cities. As for why he stopped at ten, the Jewish commentators speak about that. They note that eight people (Noah, his three sons and their wives) were not enough to prevent the Flood. Likewise, they would not be able to prevent the destruction of Sodom, etc. As for his bargaining tactic, I don’t think Abraham really knew how many righteous people there were in the city. But by getting the number as low as possible, he maximized the chances of the cities being saved. > [@](#): > > \*\* > But, for that matter, maybe Abraham stopped at ten because he was thinking of Lot’s entire family; after all, the angels told Lot to warn his whole family about the impending destruction. > \*\* Lot’s entire family only amounted to eight. (Lot, his wife, four daughters and two sons-in-law.) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/22 "2001-01-11T21:49:21Z")
About the incident with Lot: in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible (JST) or Inspired Version, we find that Lot didn’t offer his daughters to the men of Sodom, but did the exact opposite, pleading that they NOT be raped. Here’s the relevant text from the JST, with changed text in italics: > [@](#): > > **Genesis 19:9-15** > > **9** _And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him. > **10** And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them. > **11** Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good. > **12** Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom._ > **13** And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, _plead with my brethren that I may not_ bring them out unto you; and ye shall _not_ do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes; > **14** _For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that_ unto these men ye do nothing, _that they may have peace in my house;_ for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. As for the Lord “harden[ing] Pharaoh’s heart,” the JST offers the explanation that this is in error as well; every time the KJV says, “And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart,” the JST replaces it with “And Pharaoh hardened his heart.” Just FYI, not trying to start a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/23 "2001-01-11T21:49:34Z")
In many ancient cultures (and certain modern ones), one you invited someone into your house, he was under your protection. This obligation was absolute and not subject to negotiation, even at the expense of your own life or that of your family. According to the morality of his time, Lot was acting honorably. You shouldn’t try to take the Bible out of context - it only makes you look foolish. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/24 "2001-01-11T22:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Secondly, there is no place in Genesis where it says that Lot was righteous. Correct, as usual. It’s the specifically Christian scriptures that claim Lot was righteous: > [@](#): > > _2 Peter, Ch. 2:_ > 6: if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomor’rah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; > 7: and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked > 8: (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds), > 9: then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, > 10: and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/25 "2001-01-11T22:10:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snark Hunter \* > \*\*About the incident with Lot: in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible (JST) or Inspired Version, we find that Lot didn’t offer his daughters to the men of Sodom, but did the exact opposite, pleading that they NOT be raped. Here’s the relevant text from the JST, with changed text in italics: > > > [@](#): > > > > **Genesis 19:9-15** > > > > **9** _And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him. > > **10** And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them. > > **11** Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good. > > **12** Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom._ > > **13** And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, _plead with my brethren that I may not_ bring them out unto you; and ye shall _not_ do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes; > > **14** _For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that_ unto these men ye do nothing, _that they may have peace in my house;_ for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. > > As for the Lord “harden[ing] Pharaoh’s heart,” the JST offers the explanation that this is in error as well; every time the KJV says, “And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart,” the JST replaces it with “And Pharaoh hardened his heart.” > > Just FYI, not trying to start a debate. \*\* That’s fine and well, **Snark Hunter** , but that runs exactly counter to the original Hebrew. In the original Hebrew it is very clear that he _was_ offering his daughters. Likewise, in the original Hebrew, there are times when it is clear that _God_ hardened Pharroh’s heart (there are other times when he did it himself). What, exactly, is the Joseph Smith translation translating from? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/26 "2001-01-11T22:15:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > Secondly, there is no place in Genesis where it says that Lot was righteous. > > Correct, as usual. It’s the specifically Christian scriptures that claim Lot was righteous: > > > [@](#): > > > > _2 Peter, Ch. 2:_ > > 6: if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomor’rah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; > > 7: and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked > > 8: (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds), > > 9: then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, > > 10: and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. > > \*\* Thank you **RTFirefly**. I would not have thought to check out the Christian Bible for it’s opinion of Lot. And thank you for the compliment, as well. 🙂 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/27 "2001-01-11T22:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*In many ancient cultures (and certain modern ones), one you invited someone into your house, he was under your protection. This obligation was absolute and not subject to negotiation, even at the expense of your own life or that of your family. According to the morality of his time, Lot was acting honorably. > > You shouldn’t try to take the Bible out of context - it only makes you look foolish. \*\* You are correct **Alessan**. I didn’t think of that. Thank you for the correction. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/28 "2001-01-11T22:25:43Z")
The “Joseph Smith Translation” of the Bible, according to my Bible dictionary, is a “revision or translation” begun by the Prophet Joseph Smith in June 1830. He continued to make modifications until 1844, when he was killed by an angry mob. “The book of Moses and the 24th chapter of Matthew (JS-M), contained in the Pearl of Great Price [a book of LDS scripture], are actual excerpts from the JST.” Although the JST is not the official LDS Bible, it’s in the footnotes and is very helpful in understanding the KJV properly. As I understand it, he translated it by inspiration, not by translating from the original Hebrew (but I could be wrong about this). ---
**Author:** ![St.Attila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@St.Attila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Attila)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/29 "2001-01-11T22:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **Abraham wasn’t arguing with God out of curiosity. He was arguing with God because he wanted God to spare the cities.** Just who the heck is he to be arguing with God, anyways? “Nice work on the universe, God, but can I give you some pointers?” > [@](#): > > **As for why he stopped at ten, the Jewish commentators speak about that. They note that eight people (Noah, his three sons and their wives) were not enough to prevent the Flood. Likewise, they would not be able to prevent the destruction of Sodom, etc.** So, eight righteous people, He nukes the city. Ten and He would have spared it. What if it had been nine? Challenge Abraham to a match of Rochambo? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/30 "2001-01-11T22:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by St. Attila \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > **Abraham wasn’t arguing with God out of curiosity. He was arguing with God because he wanted God to spare the cities.** > > Just who the heck is he to be arguing with God, anyways? “Nice work on the universe, God, but can I give you some pointers?” \*\* Sorry. Bad choice of words on my part. Insert “bargaining” instead of “arguing.” > [@](#): > > \*\* > So, eight righteous people, He nukes the city. Ten and He would have spared it. What if it had been nine? Challenge Abraham to a match of Rochambo? > \*\* Who knows? As it was there was no one (or only one, according to the Christian Bible) righteous person in the city anyway. As for nine, I’ve always wondered myself why Abraham didn’t try to get the number down to nine. I don’t have an answer for that one. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/31 "2001-01-11T23:10:58Z")
**Moderator’s Notes:** > [@](#): > > I know we’re breaking the rules by having a serious discussion in MPSIMS. Let’s hope the mods don’t throw us out becuase of it. Everything looks fine to me. There’s no focused debate, so we can just leave it here unless, or until, something like that develops. I just want everybody keep their tempers in check, so I don’t have to send it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/32 "2001-01-12T00:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\ ***Moderator’s Notes:** > > > [@](#): > > > > I know we’re breaking the rules by having a serious discussion in MPSIMS. Let’s hope the mods don’t throw us out becuase of it. > > Everything looks fine to me. There’s no focused debate, so we can just leave it here unless, or until, something like that develops. I just want everybody keep their tempers in check, so I don’t have to send it to the Pit. \*\* I think the greater worry is that it will turn into a debate rather than a Pit thread. BTW, I know the GD mods throw stuff here all the time. When was the last time an MPSIMS thread got thrown into GD? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![St.Attila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@St.Attila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Attila)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/33 "2001-01-12T00:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **BTW, I know the GD mods throw stuff here all the time. When was the last time an MPSIMS thread got thrown into GD?** That would be embarassing… ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/34 "2001-01-12T01:17:36Z")
**zev\_steinhardt** , referring to the JST quote I posted, wrote: > [@](#): > > That’s fine and well, Snark Hunter, but that runs exactly counter to the original Hebrew. In the original Hebrew it is very clear that he was offering his daughters. Likewise, in the original Hebrew, there are times when it is clear that God hardened Pharroh’s heart (there are other times when he did it himself). **Zev** , do you have the actual original manuscript as written by the author of Genesis and Exodus? Does anyone? If not, I suggest that it is at least _possible_ that errors could have crept into the written account. If you don’t have the original manuscript, you cannot say with 100% surety that the JST “runs exactly counter to the original Hebrew.” ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/35 "2001-01-12T04:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snark Hunter \* > \*\ ***zev\_steinhardt** , referring to the JST quote I posted, wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > That’s fine and well, Snark Hunter, but that runs exactly counter to the original Hebrew. In the original Hebrew it is very clear that he was offering his daughters. Likewise, in the original Hebrew, there are times when it is clear that God hardened Pharroh’s heart (there are other times when he did it himself). > > **Zev** , do you have the actual original manuscript as written by the author of Genesis and Exodus? Does anyone? If not, I suggest that it is at least _possible_ that errors could have crept into the written account. If you don’t have the original manuscript, you cannot say with 100% surety that the JST “runs exactly counter to the original Hebrew.” > \*\* Granted that there is always a possibility that the script has changed over time (I’ll even ignore the Jewish tradition that it hasn’t for the moment). In any event, the Hebrew version that we have today has it that way. In addition, every translation that is avaialble out there today comes from the Hebrew version we have today. So, for all practical purposes, the Hebrew version we have today is the original. I highly doubt that Joseph Smith could have come across a different “original” Hebrew version which was different from which he could have made his translation. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/36 "2001-01-12T05:51:12Z")
Yeah, probably not, but if he was a true prophet, he wouldn’t have needed a manuscript, as he would be inspired to make the alterations as God wanted him to do. It all depends on whether he was a true prophet or not, IMHO. My answer to that question is, yes, he was a true prophet. Your answer may vary, but you have to admit that it’s at least **possible** that the original manuscript was different from the ones we have available to us today. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/37 "2001-01-12T14:11:37Z")
Of course, no one can prove that Smith was a prophet at all. Unless they find a manuscript that says he was (of course, this would be written by someone who believes it to be so, so…) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/38 "2001-01-12T14:49:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snark Hunter \* > \*\*Yeah, probably not, but if he was a true prophet, he wouldn’t have needed a manuscript, as he would be inspired to make the alterations as God wanted him to do. It all depends on whether he was a true prophet or not, IMHO. My answer to that question is, yes, he was a true prophet. Your answer may vary, but you have to admit that it’s at least **possible** that the original manuscript was different from the ones we have available to us today. > \*\* OK, **Snark Hunter** , but if you hold it up as an article of faith that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then I’ll hold it up as an article of faith (and it is a Jewish article of faith) that the Torah that exists today is the same one given to us by God on Mt. Sianai. In any event, considering the fact that the JST is the _only_ bible with that translation, I’d tend to believe all the others. BTW, **Snark Hunger** (or **pepperlandgirl** if you’re out there) is the JST the “official” bible of the LDS? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/39 "2001-01-12T15:41:21Z")
**vanilla** wrote: > [@](#): > > Of course, no one can prove that Smith was a prophet at all. > Unless they find a manuscript that says he was (of course, this would be written by someone who believes it to be so, so…) I can hear the first century Pharisees saying the same thing about Jesus: “Of course, no one can prove that Jesus was the Son of God at all. Unless they find a manuscript that says he was…” etc. **Zev** , no, the JST is not the official Bible of the CoJCoLDS. That distinction goes to the King James Version. And I don’t mind if you believe differently than I do concerning religion. Like I said, I didn’t want to turn this into a debate anyway. I was just mentioning that there were alternate explanations for Lot and Pharaoh acting the way they did. That’s all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434/40 "2001-01-12T15:53:38Z")
I have a question. After the flood, there were 8 people left alive. I read somewhere that this is what you would need to start the human race again. (IIRC, Marilyn of Ask MArilyn is the one who said this). True? Would 6 not be enough? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/test-your-bible-knowledge/49434.md?page=3)