# Texas AGAIN! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035 "2011-07-22T21:33:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/41 "2011-08-01T19:17:59Z")
What about the culture which voted in the Texas State Board of Education(TSBOE) members which, acting a representatives of their districts, unanimiously rejected pro-creationism teaching materials? Why is the small number of unelected lobbyists and their supporters among the electorate more representative of “Texas culture which made such a vote even necessary” but the majority of the electorate, who certainly knew creationism vs evolution would be an issue when voting for school board members, is not representative of Texas culture? Do you believe the TSBOE was a bunch of iconoclasts going against the will of their constituents on this matter? If so, do you have any evidence for this belief? Some sort of voting record showing board members who vote against creationism initiatives being kicked out of office, recalled, or defeated by pro-creationism opponents in subsequent elections? Because I have evidence in the opposite direction. In 2009 the then-membership of the TSBOE [did not clearly reject creationism and left room for confusion and doubt in teaching standards](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/education/24texas.html). The next wave of elections occurred, and in 2011 we have a unanimous rejection of creationist materials. It all comes down to what I objected to in the OP. Texas, as represented by its democratically elected school board, versus Texas as represented by a special interest group. Why do so many people think a special interest group or textbook publisher pandering to the religious factions in the country is the real “Texas culture” instead of the hundreds of thousands of politically active Texans who voted in the school board? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/42 "2011-08-01T21:50:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I then found myself wondering if the science teachers would actually knuckle under and present that stuff. If I were a science teacher, I would refuse to do it. I can picture presenting the ID material, but also making clear that it will in no way appear on any tests or assignments because it doesn’t matter in the least if a student’s understanding of ID is 100% right or 100% wrong because the entire subject is 100% wrong. In fact, extra credit for the students who write term papers finding flaws in ID. No credit for finding “flaws” in evolution that depend on scripture. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/43 "2011-08-01T22:37:28Z")
What’s to present? “Some people think we were created by some creature for which there is no evidence of any sort; they are wrong. The unit test is Monday.” That’s it! ID is covered in full. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/44 "2011-08-01T23:26:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Um, yeah - the target of the pitting \*should \*have been the Texas (and not just Texas, by any means) culture which made such a vote even necessary, not those Texans who resisted it and instead took a stand for sanity. The ones being pitted are the people who tried to force a religious agenda into schools across the state. Since they were stopped cold, consider this a “happy pitting”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/45 "2011-08-01T23:30:26Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Why is the small number of unelected lobbyists and their supporters among the electorate more representative of “Texas culture which made such a vote even necessary” but the majority of the electorate, who certainly knew creationism vs evolution would be an issue when voting for school board members, is not representative of Texas culture? Coupla things you’re overlooking: (1) the creationists do exist in force, and not only in Texas as I said, and it’s the 21st frackin’ century, and (2) It hasn’t been very long at all since they controlled that very board, and (3) the vote was, as I said, necessary. > [@](#): > > Why do so many people think a special interest group or textbook publisher pandering to the religious factions in the country is the real “Texas culture” instead of the hundreds of thousands of politically active Texans who voted in the school board? \*Who \*said _anything_ about “the” real Texas culture? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/46 "2011-08-01T23:38:53Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I think I’ll send a letter to the Texas Board of Education thanking them. I did that last week, too. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/47 "2011-08-02T16:23:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Coupla things you’re overlooking: (1) the creationists do exist in force, and not only in Texas as I said, and it’s the 21st frackin’ century, and (2) It hasn’t been very long at all since they controlled that very board, and (3) the vote was, as I said, necessary. 1. Just FYI, so you know what kind of grassroots [manpower it requires to petition the school board](http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index4.aspx?id=2147497741#Public%20Hearings). > [@](#): > > The board shall conduct a public hearing on a substantive rule if a hearing is requested by at least 25 persons, a governmental subdivision or agency, or an association having at least 25 members. Testimony is restricted to comments regarding the proposed action. The hearing must be set to take place before any action is adopted. That threshold could be passed with 0.0001% of Texas’ current population. So yea, creationists exist in sufficient force to get hearings and their opinion in front of the school board. 1. Cite? A textbook approved by the TSBOE which teaches creationism or even puts it on the same level with the theory of evolution would be just fine. 2. Creationists are citizens and their political power can not be laughed out of the discussion or rejected out of hand. To do so is to turn from a democracy to an autocracy. Period. I think they’re wrong, and frequently assholes, but I feel the same way about a lot of people on lots of different points on the political spectrum. It’s more of a “defend to the death your right to say it” kind of thing. Moving the discussion out of the realm of generalizations and guesswork, we actually have [video webcasts of the board meeting](http://www.texasadmin.com/agenda.php?confid=TEA_FB072111&dir=tea). Anyone who wants to see the actual debate can. The usual disclaimers of democracy being like sausage-making apply. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/48 "2011-08-02T16:57:18Z")
The extremists got on the Texas school board because most people don’t really pay enough attention to those elections. And they were mostly stealth candidates–their supporters knew their aims but they were kept pretty low key. There are details on this page of studies sponsored by, guess who: [Texas Freedom Network](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=publications_tfn_reports). > [@](#): > > In the early 1990s, the religious right began a long process of turning a sleepy corner of Texas government the State Board of Education into a major battleground in the nation’s culture wars. Each year, the board’s far-right faction sparks battles on issues such as the teaching of evolution, medically accurate sex education and religion in public schools. Elections in 2006 brought the religious right to the brink of complete control of the state board for the first time. This third annual State of the Religious Right report from the Texas Freedom Network Education Fund examines how social conservatives have become so influential on the state board and what that means for more than 4.5 million children educated in Texas public schools. Of course they are in bed with Rick Perry. But the TFN & others have shed some light on what’s been going on & Texans have begun to pay attention. People have a right to believe in Creationism, Intelligent Design, Flat Earthism & any other crack-brained ideas they choose. But they need to keep that trash out of our textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/49 "2011-08-02T17:39:57Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > What’s to present? “Some people think we were created by some creature for which there is no evidence of any sort; they are wrong. The unit test is Monday.” > > That’s it! ID is covered in full. Now I’m kinda curious what the bare minimum necessary lip-service to creationism actually is (or at least what is the bare minimum demanded by creationism-adventists). The teacher reads a few sentences out loud? A mention in the textbook? One class period? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/50 "2011-08-02T18:15:07Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Cite? A textbook approved by the TSBOE which teaches creationism or even puts it on the same level with the theory of evolution would be just fine. > > 2. Creationists are citizens and their political power can not be laughed out of the discussion or rejected out of hand. To do so is to turn from a democracy to an autocracy. Period. I think they’re wrong, and frequently assholes, but I feel the same way about a lot of people on lots of different points on the political spectrum. It’s more of a “defend to the death your right to say it” kind of thing. Only science should be taught in science classes, not opinions. Do you think that we have an obligation to teach that maybe the Sun and the rest of the Universe revolves around the Earth? Because that’s just as valid as Creationism/Intelligent Design, and has just as much evidence supporting it. I know! How about we pass a law that states that evolution, the Big Bang Theory, and other scientific facts be taught in every religious sermon that touches on the origin of the universe, and on the origin of humans? That’s fair, right? What, you want to keep science out of the church? Then let’s keep religion out of the classroom. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/51 "2011-08-02T18:59:01Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Only science should be taught in science classes, not opinions. Do you think that we have an obligation to teach that maybe the Sun and the rest of the Universe revolves around the Earth? Because that’s just as valid as Creationism/Intelligent Design, and has just as much evidence supporting it. > > I know! How about we pass a law that states that evolution, the Big Bang Theory, and other scientific facts be taught in every religious sermon that touches on the origin of the universe, and on the origin of humans? That’s fair, right? What, you want to keep science out of the church? Then let’s keep religion out of the classroom. How about you stop putting words in my mouth? I’ve never said religion belongs in the science classroom. Democracy sucks. If you want to have universally mandated education put forth by a democratic state then you’re shit out of luck if you think you can exclude the opinions of other citizens, whether they be science-based or not. People with shitty learning processes and whacked out beliefs have exactly the same privileges in society as Albert Fucking Einstein and their voice on the curriculum and standards of a state which claims to represent them must be part of the process. Otherwise you don’t have a democracy. You may be ok with the current officials laughing citizens out of meetings without so much as a vote on their petition, but frankly that says more about you than it does about those who are trying to petition the government for their preferred implementation of scholastic standards. It says you’re ok with autocracy and disenfranchising your fellow citizens as long as the autocrats are doing what you approve of and disenfranchising those you disapprove of. That’s something we’re going to have to agree to disagree on. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035/52 "2011-08-02T19:30:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Now I’m kinda curious what the bare minimum necessary lip-service to creationism actually is (or at least what is the bare minimum demanded by creationism-adventists). The teacher reads a few sentences out loud? A mention in the textbook? One class period? It’s actually quite low. Creationists are pretty much last-gasp god-of-the-gaps proponents and anything they can spin as a victory they do. [For example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selman_v._Cobb_County_School_District) > [@](#): > > In 2001 the school district began the process of adopting new science textbooks. The adoption process led to a legal review, and later revision, of existing policy and regulation on theories of origin. When parents became aware that the new textbook and changes in policy would result in strengthening the teaching of evolution, a petition against this was organised and signed by 2,300 parents. In an attempt to defuse this protest, the new textbook (written by Kenneth Miller and Joseph Levine) was adopted on the condition that the sticker would be attached to them.[2] The disclaimer read: > > ``` > This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered. > > Approved by > Cobb County Board of Education > Thursday, March 28, 2002 > > ``` [Cobb County Georgia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobb_County), in 2000, had a population of 607,751, so the ~2300 who signed the petition represented ~0.3% of the people. Such is the nature of democracy that a small number of activists can carry the day when the majority remains silent. Enjoy, Steven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-again/590035.md?page=2)