# Texas bashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643 "2005-01-07T21:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/1 "2005-01-07T21:17:58Z")
**KellyM’s** response to **Izzybella** in [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5688308&postcount=22](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5688308&postcount=22) > [@KellyM](#): > > Why not? First of all, the deplorable state of the Texas criminal justice system that tolerates, if not encourages, abuses like allowing this guy’s testimony at trial (as well as public defenders who sleep through trials, and similar atrocities) is definitely a contributing factor to this case. It was the Texas criminal justice system that functioned properly in overturning the conviction. His testimony would have been allowed in any state; he is an expert witness. Or was one, because I imagine his career is down the toilet now. > [@KellyM](#): > > Second: Is it just me, or does Texas have a higher incidence of post-partum depression leading to death than other states? I mean, every last one of the recent incidents I can recall where some woman with PPD has killed her kids has been in Texas. Is PPD more common in Texas? Or do Texans just ignore people with the symptoms of PPD while in other places they notice and take appropriate action before (instead of after) someone dies? It’s just you. I don’t think PPD is more common in Texas than anywhere else, and believe it or not, we really don’t ignore symptoms of mental illness. Unless you’re Rusty Yates, but that’s a different issue. > [@KellyM](#): > > I think all of this says a great deal about the relative value of human life in Texas, compared to other places. And I think Texas really should answer for that. > > But I suppose it’s not required in this thread. This is, after all, IMHO. Answer for what? What in the world makes you think Texans don’t place a high value on human life? After reading your response, one can only conclude that you have a boner on for Texas and Texans. Is it sour-grapes jealousy of us or what? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/2 "2005-01-07T21:57:33Z")
I can’t/won’t speak for **KellyM** but there are some facts about Texas that are quite disturbing. KILLING WITHOUT MERCY: [CLEMENCY PROCEDURES IN TEXAS](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engAMR510851999) > [@](#): > > Recent lawsuits and court challenges have exposed glaring deficiencies in the procedures used by the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles in reviewing clemency petitions by prisoners facing imminent execution. In a jurisdiction that executes more people than any other in the Western world, Texas has turned the final safeguard of executive clemency into nothing more than an empty gesture. There was also the death sentence of 17 year old [Napoleon Beazly.](http://www.ccadp.org/napoleonbeazley-amnesty.htm) Or when Texas executed a man said to be [mentally retarded.](http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/09/texas.double.execution.03/) It doesn’t seem to me that Texas’ justice has been a bright beacon when it comes to a high value on human life. ---
**Author:** ![midget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@midget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/midget)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/3 "2005-01-07T22:10:06Z")
I can’t speak for **clothahump** , but I see a big difference between the value of innocent citizens (who **KellyM** was referring to) and convicted murderers. I happen to believe that it’s pointless to lock someone up for their entire life, and agree with the death penalty for that reason. Does that mean I have a low value of innocent lives? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/4 "2005-01-07T22:15:15Z")
> [@midget](#): > > I happen to believe that it’s pointless to lock someone up for their entire life, and agree with the death penalty for that reason. Does that mean I have a low value of innocent lives? Read the following excerpt from Amnesty International’s report on Texas entitled [The Death Penalty in Texas: Lethal Injustice](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engAMR510101998) > [@](#): > > The case of Jessie DeWayne Jacobs > > “This is not going to be an execution. This is premeditated murder… I am not guilty of this crime.” Final statement of Jessie DeWayne Jacobs. > > Jesse DeWayne Jacobs was executed in Texas on 4 January 1995. He was sentenced to death in 1986 for the murder of Etta Ann Urdiales. At his trial, the prosecution had argued that “the simple fact is that Jesse Jacobs, and Jesse Jacobs alone, killed Etta Ann Urdiales.” Seven months later Jacobs’ sister, Bobbie Jean Hogan, was also put on trial for the murder of Urdiales. At Hogan’s trial the same district attorney, Peter Speers, who had prosecuted Jacobs’ case, told the jury that “through the course of it all I have changed my mind about what actually happened. And I’m convinced that Bobbie Hogan is the one who pulled the trigger.” Jesse Jacobs was a “central” witness in Hogan’s trial and the prosecution urged the jury to believe him. Bobbie Jean Hogan was convicted of shooting Urdiales and was sentenced to ten years’ imprisonment for involuntary manslaughter. > > Jacobs remained on death row despite the fact that his sister had been convicted of shooting Etta Ann Urdiales. The prosecution argued that Jacobs was still guilty of a capital offence as an accessory to the murder. However, this argument ignored the fact that the jury who sentenced Jacobs to death believed him to be the triggerman in the killing of Urdiales and that the prosecution had put forward two different versions of the killings at the two trials. > > The US Supreme Court denied Jacobs’ motion for a stay of execution on the grounds that it could not overturn the jury’s determination of fact. In his dissent from the majority decision, Supreme Court Justice Stevens wrote: “I find this course of events deeply troubling. If the prosecutor’s arguments at the trial of Jacob’s sister are to be believed, then Jacobs is innocent of capital murder. In my opinion, it would be fundamentally unfair to execute a person on the basis of a factual determination that the state had formally disavowed.” > > In his final statement in the execution chamber, Jesse DeWayne Jacobs protested the injustice of his death, stating: “There is not going to be an execution. This is premeditated murder by the appointed district attorney and the State of Texas. I am not guilty of this crime.” There’s a lot more going on in Texas too, also from the link: > [@](#): > > Some Texas officials are so keen to have prisoners executed, that they are even willing to openly contemplate the execution of an innocent prisoner. During oral arguments before the US Supreme Court in Herrera v Collins the assistant Attorney General of Texas, Margaret Griffey, was asked by Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy “Suppose you have a videotape which conclusively shows the person is innocent, and you have a state which, as a matter of policy or law, simply does not hear new evidence claims, is there a federal constitutional violation?” she replied “No, Your Honor, there is not…such an execution would not be violative of the Constitution.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/5 "2005-01-07T22:22:41Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > There was also the death sentence of 17 year old [Napoleon Beazly.](http://www.ccadp.org/napoleonbeazley-amnesty.htm) A 17 year old who stole a car and killed a man. > [@](#): > > Or when Texas executed a man said to be [mentally retarded.](http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/09/texas.double.execution.03/) He was competent enough to kidnap a young woman, then rape and stab her to death. Whether you think the death penalty is right or wrong, neither of those men above seemed to place a very high value on human life either. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/6 "2005-01-07T22:29:24Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > A 17 year old who stole a car and killed a man. > > He was competent enough to kidnap a young woman, then rape and stab her to death. > > Whether you think the death penalty is right or wrong, neither of those men above seemed to place a very high value on human life either. Nope, they didn’t, nor would I claim to ever defend their actions. However a non-retarded adult should be able to react without playing “Eye for an Eye”. And so should the Texas government. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/7 "2005-01-07T22:30:33Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Whether you think the death penalty is right or wrong, neither of those men above seemed to place a very high value on human life either. And you value it so deeply you … wait, no. You reduced each man’s life to one sentence. The unexamined life is not worth living … indeed. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/8 "2005-01-07T22:30:55Z")
Has any other state in the last 20 years had something like what happened at Tulia, Texas, and been as slow to rectify once it became apparent that a gross misscarriage justice had been perpetrated? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/9 "2005-01-07T22:40:14Z")
Here’s the story about the [Tulia 46](http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/tom_coleman/) in case anyone missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/10 "2005-01-07T22:46:03Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > And you value it so deeply you … wait, no. You reduced each man’s life to one sentence. Bite me. You kidnap somebody, then rape and kill her? If you do that, you don’t deserve to live anymore. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/11 "2005-01-07T22:51:05Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Bite me. You kidnap somebody, then rape and kill her? If you do that, you don’t deserve to live anymore. You’re the one with the life-a-sentence summary skills, so I guess you get to decide… ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/12 "2005-01-07T22:51:29Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Bite me. You kidnap somebody, then rape and kill her? If you do that, you don’t deserve to live anymore. > **[Texas law must really suck.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295601)** > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/06/jealous.husband.ap/index.html 4 months for murder. 15 years for wounding. Something is wrong here. You gotta love the last line… We can’t fix him, so let’s just let him go! What say you about that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/13 "2005-01-07T23:13:58Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > What say you about that? That it’s pretty bizzare, and that, given the finding of “in sudden passion” in the first trial, the sentence in the second trial was probably inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/14 "2005-01-07T23:14:41Z")
Stpauler’s post deserves comment from pro-Dp’ers here. Justice Stevens, and even the prosecutor, admit that the man who was killed did not kill another person. Henceforth, he was not guilty of a capital crime. How can this be justified. Is this not an example of an injustice? ---
**Author:** ![midget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90db22/32.png) [@midget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/midget)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/15 "2005-01-08T00:55:40Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Stpauler’s post deserves comment from pro-Dp’ers here. Justice Stevens, and even the prosecutor, admit that the man who was killed did not kill another person. Henceforth, he was not guilty of a capital crime. How can this be justified. Is this not an example of an injustice? If the facts are correct in that quote he presented, then yes, that is an injustice and the execution should not have occurred. However, a cock-up on the part of Texas in 1995 does not change my views on the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/16 "2005-01-08T05:33:11Z")
Just out of interest, how many cock ups would it take to change your opinion? And relevant to the OP, isn’t Texas’ history of provision of defense to indigents abysmal? Which in a state with a high propensity to execute might be seen as lacking a certain respect for the value of life. On the part of the state, of course, not its residents. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/17 "2005-01-09T04:57:30Z")
Aw, c’mon, now, I’m sure the State of Texas places quite a high value on human life. …at least until it’s born. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/18 "2005-01-09T09:26:30Z")
Texas is one of the most populous states in the country. Therefore, we have more idiots than most states. It doesn’t help that so many Texans have a (relatively unfounded) innate sense of state pride, either. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/19 "2005-01-09T09:28:43Z")
I’ll tell you whut though, we make a mean barbequed brisket sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643/20 "2005-01-09T09:37:24Z")
As a recovering Texan I say that Texas deserves all the bashing that could possibly be unleashed. I was born in Texas simply because my parents were too damn dumb to leave the place. I have lived in eight of the United States and have never seen the unbridled prejudice and reactionaryism that is rampant in Texas anywhere else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-bashing/283643.md?page=2)