# Texas Board of Education meeting -- Jesus Christ, why do we have to listen to these clowns? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275 "2010-05-21T16:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/41 "2010-05-22T16:02:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t believe this is true, but I’m open to changing my mind if you can show me that they did this. The article says they re-ordered the causes, plural. There was only one real cause, and it’s dishonest to try to portray it any other way. They also want to change the phrase “slave trade” to “Atlantic Triangular Trade.” It’s bullshit. They’re lying and hiding history. That’s what the Soviet Union did, what China does, what North Korea does, not what America does. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe they did this, but I’m open to changing my mind if you can show me that they did this. This was obviouly phrase facetiously, but in point of fact, they did try to add a clause saying that evolution was unp[rpven and that the wizard hypothesis should be taught along side it. > [@](#): > > Possible, however I’m not even sure this is correct. It is correct. It’s in the article I linked. > [@](#): > > You’ve noted 3 things, of which 1 might be almost correct. So, I guess I’m still not all that worried. All are essentially correct. The attempt to whitewash slavery is especially troublesome in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/42 "2010-05-22T16:11:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > They changed the reason for the civil war, and I didn’t worry because that’s just old history. > > They changed the science books to remove evolution, and I didn’t worry because kids will figure it out anyway > > They changed the fact that McCarthy made stuff up and destroyed people’s careers for his own political gain and i didn’t worry because I’m not a communist. > > Just how much do you propose to let the school board fanatics get away with? I love the echo of Pastor Martin Niemoeller in that. 🙂 Thumbs up to you for doing so. And maybe that answers the question. Figthing ignorance starts with combatting the spreading of falsehoods in the name of a perversian of Christianity to innocent Texas schoolkids. No wonder it’s taking longer than we thought! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/43 "2010-05-22T16:31:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There was only one real cause, and it’s dishonest to try to portray it any other way. > > They also want to change the phrase “slave trade” to “Atlantic Triangular Trade.” It’s bullshit. They’re lying and hiding history. That’s what the Soviet Union did, what China does, what North Korea does, not what America does. I don’t believe that any public school textbooks teach that there was “only one real cause”, but I’m open to changing my mind about that if you’ve got a cite. I certainly learned the various causes when I was in school. > [@](#): > > This was obviouly phrase facetiously, but in point of fact, they did try to add a clause saying that evolution was unp[rpven and that the wizard hypothesis should be taught along side it. Facetious or not, it wasn’t even close to being correct. > [@](#): > > It is correct. It’s in the article I linked. The article says: > [@](#): > > The bulk of the day’s discussions were reruns from previous meetings…whether Joseph McCarthy was correct all along about government infiltration by the communists I don’t know how you derive “They changed the fact that McCarthy made stuff up and destroyed people’s careers for his own political gain” from that incredibly vague phrase. > [@](#): > > All are essentially correct. The attempt to whitewash slavery is especially troublesome in my mind. Only if “essentially correct” means one is completely wrong, one is arguably wrong, and the other is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/44 "2010-05-22T16:54:05Z")
**DtC** : FYI, here in CA, grade 8 social studies is devoted to American History. Here’s what the [state curriculum standards say about the Civil War:](http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/index.asp) > [@](#): > > \*\*8.10 Students analyze the multiple causes, key events, and complex consequences of the Civil War. \*\* > > 1. Compare the conflicting interpretations of state and federal authority as emphasized in the speeches and writings of statesmen such as Daniel Webster and John C. Calhoun. > 2. Trace the boundaries constituting the North and the South, the geographical differences between the two regions, and the differences between agrarians and industrialists. > 3. Identify the constitutional issues posed by the doctrine of nullification and secession and the earliest origins of that doctrine. > 4. Discuss Abraham Lincoln’s presidency and his significant writings and speeches and their relationship to the Declaration of Independence, such as his “House Divided” speech (1858), Gettysburg Address (1863), Emancipation Proclamation (1863), and inaugural addresses (1861 and 1865). > 5. Study the views and lives of leaders (e.g., Ulysses S. Grant, Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee) and soldiers on both sides of the war, including those of black soldiers and regiments. > 6. Describe critical developments and events in the war, including the major battles, geographical advantages and obstacles, technological advances, and General Lee’s surrender at Appomattox. > 7. Explain how the war affected combatants, civilians, the physical environment, and future warfare. Emphasis added. Now, I’m not going to engage in another endless “debate” with you as defend any and all wild claims, whether correct or not, that support your OP. Suffice it to say that the changes they are contemplating in Texas are not good, but it doesn’t serve the effort of fighting ignorance to grossly mischaracterize them. It only serves to re-enforce the victims-of-the-liberals attitude that these conservative Texas project. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/45 "2010-05-22T17:19:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Look, just let 'em do it. Remember all those ‘this is your brain on drugs!’ commercials? Every kid mocked them. This will only teach them the weaknesses of the conservative position. The state determines the textbook, the school district generally specifies the curriculum, and the teacher actually interprets and implements that curriculum. I’m not so worried that the districts and teachers will blindly and stupidly go along with those retards on the Board of Education about this- sure, they’ll use that textbook but decent teachers (the vast majority, IMO) will point out, gloss over, or ignore the dipshit parts. Or just not use the book at all- I had plenty of teachers that did that in the social studies. Not everyone in Texas who’s conservative is an idiot; there are a LOT of us who are getting pretty damned sick of Rick Perry, his imperial governorship, and his transparent political motivation and utter disregard for common sense when appointing people to various commissions and boards. That aside, the board of education members are elected from single member districts; the problem is that we run into a situation where a lot of the less big-city districts are populated by very socially conservative people, and they tend to think that voting for a democrat is endorsing homosexuality, free love, abortion, etc… and to them, that’s worse than voting for some wingnut who’s against real science, unbiased history and revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/46 "2010-05-22T17:34:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t know how you derive “They changed the fact that McCarthy made stuff up and destroyed people’s careers for his own political gain” from that incredibly vague phrase. I didn’t say that, **Euphonious Polemic** did, and he was clearly being facetious (though accurate as to core motivations). > [@](#): > > Only if “essentially correct” means one is completely wrong, one is arguably wrong, and the other is unclear. No, all are essentially correct. They want to whitewash sl;avery, turn Joe Mccarthy and Jefferson Davis into heroes, and you know _damn_ well they want to remove evolution from the science curriculum and would do it altogether if they legally could. Hell, they just started their their meting yesterday with a prayer calling for America to “return” to being a full “Christian land governed by Christian principles.” > [@](#): > > DtC: FYI, here in CA, grade 8 social studies is devoted to American History. Here’s what the state curriculum standards say about the Civil War: There was only one real cause of the Civil War, and even if you want to add other factors, slavery still belongs at the top of the list. Putting it as the “third most important” is a lie. Changing the phrase “slave trade” to “Atlantic Triangular Trade” is just as dishonest and trying to put Jefferson Davis on an equal footing with Abraham Lincoln is not only dishonest, but flat out racially hostile and insulting. The attempt to remove Thomas Jefferson from textbooks is another stunningly disgraceful and blatantly political thing to do. Your attitude about teaching children false and politicized history is puzzling given the mission of this board (not to mention the ostensible mission of THAT board). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/47 "2010-05-22T17:50:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say that, **Euphonious Polemic** did, and he was clearly being facetious (though accurate as to core motivations). So, he was being facetious in 2 of his 3 claims? Then it’s an even weaker argument than I thought. > [@](#): > > No, all are essentially correct. Again, you allow any claim to be made, under the rubric of facetiousness, as long as it supports your thesis. Well, I’ll just claim, facetiously, that you are an over-acting liberal nut job, and say that I’m “essentially correct”. > [@](#): > > Your attitude about teaching children false and politicized history is puzzling given the mission of this board (not to mention the ostensible mission of THAT board). I’m agin’ it. I already said so. I just can’t get all worked up about it, as I think it’s a minor part of a curriculum that most of these kids are going to forget no matter what we teach. Just stating my own opinion. You’re free to yours. You are not free, however, to mischaracterize what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/48 "2010-05-22T17:54:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **DtC** : FYI, here in CA, grade 8 social studies is devoted to American History. Here’s what the [state curriculum standards say about the Civil War:](http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/index.asp). I’m confused… The evil,conservative Texans want to list slavery as only the third,least-important cause of the Civil War. But good,liberal California–hippie-lovin’, gay-lovin’ California— doesn’t even mention the word slavery at all in its list of the seven important issues to be studied? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/49 "2010-05-22T18:12:09Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m confused… > The evil,conservative Texans want to list slavery as only the third,least-important cause of the Civil War. > But good,liberal California–hippie-lovin’, gay-lovin’ California— doesn’t even mention the word slavery at all in its list of the seven important issues to be studied? > Huh? That’s just an outline, so it’s not surprising that they don’t list all the details. I only used that cite to show \*\*DtC \*\*that his view is not the one that is generally taught in schools now. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/50 "2010-05-22T18:52:55Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > [Here’s how they started the meeting today.](http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=5329299) > > Lord help us. Which lord? As a Jew, are there any apologists out there who can tell me not to be offended, or even threatened, by this? “…a Christian land governed by Christian principles…” Gah!!! That such people are deciding the education of our children! ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/51 "2010-05-22T20:29:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They also want to change the phrase “slave trade” to “Atlantic Triangular Trade.” It’s bullshit. They’re lying and hiding history. That’s what the Soviet Union did, what China does, what North Korea does, not what America does. Dio, I know you don’t like it when facts get in the way of your rants, but schools have been teaching students about the Triangle Trade for decades. And unless you just say “Triangle Trade!” and leave it at that, you have to explain who was being traded. So I very much doubt Texas can hide the existence of slavery in America’s past. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/52 "2010-05-22T21:13:04Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m confused… > The evil,conservative Texans want to list slavery as only the third,least-important cause of the Civil War. > But good,liberal California–hippie-lovin’, gay-lovin’ California— doesn’t even mention the word slavery at all in its list of the seven important issues to be studied? > Huh? That was not a list of standards. **Mace** only wanted to use it show that other states list multiple “causes” for the Civil War, even though, in reality, there was only one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/53 "2010-05-22T21:16:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, he was being facetious in 2 of his 3 claims? No, he was being facetious in how he phrased all three of them. He was riffing on the “first they came for…” poem. Nitpicking the literal semantics is missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/54 "2010-05-22T21:17:46Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Dio, I know you don’t like it when facts get in the way of your rants, but schools have been teaching students about the Triangle Trade for decades. And unless you just say “Triangle Trade!” and leave it at that, you have to explain who was being traded. So I very much doubt Texas can hide the existence of slavery in America’s past. Other states have not been forbidden to use the phrase “slave trade.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/55 "2010-05-22T21:23:57Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Dio, I know you don’t like it when facts get in the way of your rants, but schools have been teaching students about the Triangle Trade for decades. And unless you just say “Triangle Trade!” and leave it at that, you have to explain who was being traded. So I very much doubt Texas can hide the existence of slavery in America’s past. That’s the way learned it. And I didn’t leave school thinking they were trading triangles. _I’ll give two 90s for an isosceles!_ > [@DtC](#): > > Other states have not been forbidden to use the phrase “slave trade.” Texas teachers are “forbidden” to use that phrase? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/56 "2010-05-22T21:28:45Z")
Under these new standards, yes, they would be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/57 "2010-05-22T21:28:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, he was being facetious in how he phrased all three of them. He was riffing on the “first they came for…” poem. Nitpicking the literal semantics is missing the point. I know what he was riffing on, and I was criticizing the content, not the semantics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/58 "2010-05-22T21:30:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Under these new standards, yes, they would be. Can we have a cite to back that up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/59 "2010-05-22T21:38:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can we have a cite to back that up? Never mind. I’ll just quote from the link in your OP: > [@](#): > > In the big picture, the changes made little difference in the documents, and likely will make far less difference once they filter through test-makers and textbook publishers and, finally, down to teachers who largely can teach what and how they want once the material gets to the classroom. Which further backs up my overall lack of outrage. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275/60 "2010-05-22T21:51:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They also want to change the phrase “slave trade” to “Atlantic Triangular Trade.” It’s bullshit. They’re lying and hiding history. That’s what the Soviet Union did, what China does, what North Korea does, not what America does. Well, yeah. Which is why – coming all the way back around to the OP – we should of course have no problem with listing the President’s name as “Barack Hussein Obama”, right? We certainly don’t anyone accusing us of hiding anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-board-of-education-meeting-jesus-christ-why-do-we-have-to-listen-to-these-clowns/540275.md?page=4)