# Texas Cop Tasers Granny **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417 "2009-06-11T04:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/341 "2009-06-15T16:03:39Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Not anymore - why do you think the paperwork has increased, if not to keep a proper track on what the officers are doing on their time? - but it doesn’t mean the culture has disappeared. It’d be easy to establish in any particular officer’s case though, by checking their arrests in relationship to when their shift ended. I’m talking about paperwork to justify an arrest and process a suspect into the jail, not paperwork about timekeeping for the cops. Again, I’m just speculating, but I imagine the processing criminal suspects has gotten more complex and time consuming, as rules about how they are treated keep getting added. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/342 "2009-06-15T16:10:14Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > …The vast majority of deaths falsely attributed to stuns are actually due to Excited Delirium Syndrome, which is a brain disorder recognized long before tasers were used by law enforcement. EDS is explained in great detail in the Miami-Dade Grand Jury report I previously linked. > … I’m curious if you have a link about this. According to Wiki (hardly authoritative, I know), this condition is not recognized by either the American Medical Association or the American Psychological Association. Here’s part of what the article says: > [@](#): > > Eric Balaban of the American Civil Liberties Union said: “I know of no reputable medical organization — certainly not the American Medical Association (AMA) or the American Psychological Association (APA) that recognizes excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition.”[4] Melissa Smith of the American Medical Association said the organization has “no official policy” on the disorder.[5] > > Grame Norton, director of the public safety project of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association argues that “Anytime you see a specific condition being referenced in only one context it raises serious question.” Other critics assert that the term is used to mask police brutality. Although the term “excited delirium” has been accepted by the National Association of Medical Examiners, the American Medical Association has no official policy on its use. The Canadian Medical Association Journal dismisses it as a “pop culture phenomenon”.[10] The condition is not recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/343 "2009-06-15T16:12:30Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This sounds a lot like the argument the tobacco companies used to use: that cigarettes have never actually killed anybody (they haven’t.) Okay. Since there are no studies that indicate cigarette smoke is carcinogenic, I can’t see how you could surmise that smoking is responsible for death. Oh wait… > [@Cisco](#): > > But in case you really don’t know that tasers have killed people, [here is an article](http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html?&wired) that describes a Chicago coroner listing eletrocution as the primary cause of death when someone was killed by a taser. And it wasn’t an isolated incident. Yes, [let’s review](http://www.ipicd.com/docs/Hasse_Case_Study.pdf) Mr. Hasse’s death, shall we? (Warning: PDF) In case you’re not going to read it, let me quote from this case study of Mr. Hasse’s death the pertinent findings of error with regard to the ME’s report: > [@](#): > > Material errors in this autopsy include: (1) blaming the ECD when the subject had normal pulse and respiration after the application as the electrical induction of VF causes loss of both within seconds, (2) assuming that a last longer ECD application increased the risk of VF induction, (3) reversing the sequence of the long and short applications, (4) relying on an unsupported speculation of a dysynergy between electrical current and methamphetamine, (4) ignoring the 8 minute gap between the ECD application and the collapse, (5) ignoring the subject’s alertness minutes after the ECD application, (6) ignoring the failure of defibrillation shocks, (7) ignoring the subject’s weight which would put his VF induction requirement at 150 times the TASER X26 output, (8) relying on Ruggieri’s erroneous claims as the basis for his opinion, and (9) failing to consider excited delirium when the subject had at least seven signs. Read the analysis of Hasse’s death at the end of this report. It’s good to have facts of the case. > [@Cisco](#): > > I mean, you realize that electricity has been used for over a century as a method of _execution_, right? Arguing that tasers aren’t what’s killing these people seems naive at best, and extremely disingenuous at worst. You do not come off as naive. However, you seem to be either naive or disingenuous about the way tasers work. You can’t electrocute someone with a properly working taser device. It’s not comparable at all to electrocution used in capital punishment. Whereas tasers are high voltage/low current (ampere), the electric chair delivers low voltage at very high current. As noted in the Miami-Dade report I linked above: > [@](#): > > Most, if not all, of the news reports issued regarding ECD stunning incidents point out that the ECDs issue 50,000 volts. Though factual, the information is useless without some information regarding how many amps are used to deliver the charge. For instance, the burglar mentioned above was electrocuted with only 115 volts. It is not just the 115 volts that killed him. It is the fact that those volts were delivered at 4 amps. So too, in the past the State of Florida was using the electric chair to execute convicted murderers. **“Old Sparky” effectively dispatched the task with only 2,000 volts delivered at 14 amps. Those persons died immediately from the electrical shock.** Each of these examplesinvolves voltage amounts that are only a fraction of that delivered by a stun gun. However, because the amperage is so high, the individuals are more likely to experience death or serious injury from the electrical charge. On the other hand, **Tasers deliver a voltage amount that is significantly higher than the regular house current and Florida’s electric chair. However, because it only uses less than 4 milliamps, it does not cause death from electrocution.** Bolding mine. [Here’s another article](http://www.slate.com/id/2154253/) that explains it in simple terms. Taser current is measured in milliAmps. That’s a big difference from the electric chair, bud. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/344 "2009-06-15T16:16:28Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Once again, I’ll ask for a cite, seeing as how we’re in GD. Nobody has yet come up with a link that disputes the Wake Forest study that I posted earlier. There have been no deaths attributed directly to the taser. False. [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html) > [@](#): > > About 25 seconds after police enter the secure area where he is, there is a loud crack that sounds like a Taser shot, followed by Dziekanski screaming and convulsing as he stumbles and falls to the floor. > > Another loud crack can be heard as an officer appears to fire one more Taser shot into Dziekanski. > > As the officers kneel on top of Dziekanski and handcuff him, he continues to scream and convulse on the floor. > > One officer is heard to say, “Hit him again. Hit him again,” and there is another loud cracking sound. > > Police have said only two Taser shots were fired, but a witness said she heard up to four Taser shots. > > A minute and half after the first Taser shot was fired Dziekanski stops moaning and convulsing and becomes still and silent. > > Shortly after, the officers appear to be checking his condition and one officer is heard to say, “code red.” > > The video ends shortly after. > > Minutes later, ambulance attendants arrived but their efforts to revive Dziekanski were unsuccessful and he was declared dead. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/345 "2009-06-15T16:20:16Z")
All this thread proves is that some people will defend cops in almost any situation. Others will be distrustful of cops in most situations. To me, this is an easy call. He tasered a 72 tear old woman. It was wrong. The escalation was of his making. The old lady was upset. There were a lot of options he had. he did not choose wisely. The cop needs retraining. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/346 "2009-06-15T16:20:36Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Okay. Since there are no studies that indicate cigarette smoke is carcinogenic, I can’t see how you could surmise that smoking is responsible for death. > > Oh wait… Yeah, and there are no studies that indicate electricity is dangerous. :rolleyes:. Come on. You’re starting to sound an awful lot like a sales rep from Taser International. Your source is hardly impartial and I have trouble trusting it over multiple other sources including coroners who have actually performed the autopsies on these people. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/347 "2009-06-15T16:33:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Loud or not she continued to be non cooperative and refused to follow lawful instructions from the officer. We can’t realistically expect officers to handle every situation perfectly and give a pass to people stupid and belligerent enough get in a pissing match with a cop. No, we can judge each case as it occurs. And in _this_ case, the cop did nothing to diffuse the situation. His continued screaming and yelling and shoving of the woman only made her less willing to comply with his orders. Yet, when faced with a decided lack of success, he didn’t ever try another tactic, he just got more and more aggressive with her. I don’t deny that she was wrong. I don’t deny that she was being belligerent and obnoxious and should’ve signed her ticket and gone on her way. I do, however, fault this officer for handling the situation poorly and never having the presence of mind or ability to try something different to try to affect a different outcome. The answer to dealing with an angry person is not to make them more and more angry. When he saw that that was what he was doing, he should have tried something different. > [@](#): > > How do you feel about dear ole granny lying through her teeth on camera, and being willing to ruin the officers career. Gosh that’s so endearing in the elderly. What happened after the fact is immaterial to the conduct of the officer during the stop. > [@](#): > > That\* may\* have been an error in judgment on his part but we really don’t know what might have happened had he tried a softer approach. It doesn’t change the fact that he was right and giving her repeated opportunities to comply. She refused. He was right on the law, he was, clearly, not right in his approach to handling someone who was reacting in the way that this woman was acting. We know this because he had to draw his weapon. Having to draw a weapon at a traffic stop is a pretty clear sign that something was done wrongly. > [@](#): > > You’re setting unrealistic expectations for a human officer and excusing granny far too much IMO. My expectation of this officer is that he pay attention to the reactions to his actions, and behave accordingly so that no one, neither himself nor any civilian, suspect or otherwise, is injured or put at risk of injury. That is pretty much a basic requirement of his position. If he cannot deal with the stressor of an old lady bitching out at a traffic stop, what does this guy do with a tweaker? Or someone with a weapon? Or someone who actually confronts him physically rather than just swearing at him while standing still? > [@](#): > > I’ve been screamed at by cops during a routine pull over. I decided it wasn’t smart to be less cooperative because he was rude or unnecessarily loud. I said, “yes sir, no disrespect intended” because I thought that was best FOR ME. Which is appropos of just about nothing. But good for you. > [@](#): > > Yelling is not my preferred style but in can be effective when you need to get someone’s attention and let them know you’re in charge, losing patience, and consequences are about to get worse not better. It can be effective and it can backfire. When it backfires, the person who has authority needs to recognize that and try something else. And much more important, the person with authority and a variety of weapons and the power to arrest at their disposal really ought not be losing patience as quickly as this. If patience is being lost, it shouldn’t happen within the timespan of a YouTube video. This is, or should be, another temperamental requirement for a police officer. > [@](#): > > The tactic didn’t work in this case but he was still right Again, no one suggested that he was not right about the law nor his justification for requiring her signature and telling her arrest was the penalty for refusing to sign. Where he was not right, by the evidence, is in how he went about attempting to communicate his “rightness” to this woman. > [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Once again, I’ll ask for a cite, seeing as how we’re in GD. Nobody has yet come up with a link that disputes the Wake Forest study that I posted earlier. There have been no deaths attributed directly to the taser. And once again, I reiterate that I don’t care if the deaths can be _directly_ attributed to the Taser. If the Taser contributed to the deaths, then it’s a problem. > [@](#): > > And yet you, and others, keep insisting that tasers are killing people when what’s actually happening is that they aren’t. If you keep insisting that the deaths AI attributes to tasers were \*caused \*by the tasers, then you have to admit that they were \*caused \*by drug abuse, heart conditions, brain disorders, etc. in accordance with coroners’ reports of those deaths. There’s no conclusive proof that it was the electrical shock that caused their bodies to shut down and that the arrest event was physically more than their already compromised bodies could handle. See, the thing is, we’ll never know if the underlying diseases or the drug use or the arrests themselves would’ve killed those people, because of the fact that the Taser was used. It complicates the question. It complicates their health status. You can’t attribute directly, but you cannot rule it out as a factor. There is no way to know because you cannot remove the Taser from the equation. > [@](#): > > Further, AI’s death list includes individuals who died well after the taser event but while still in custody. That’s not how death from electric shocks work. Quite clearly, but a Taser isn’t a simple electric shock. The action of the Taser is much different than the action of, for instance, sticking a metal fork into a toaster. Or grabbing an improperly grounded microphone while in a puddle of water. Or being put in an electric chair. Therefore the reaction of the body isn’t going to be the same. Why are _you_ presuming that if a Tasered person’s death doesn’t mimic an electrocution death then the Taser cannot be implicated? > [@](#): > > Well, and this is where I disagree with you. I feel that officers have every right and the responsibility to ensure that arrests (for whatever reason) are carried out in a reasonably safe and expedient manner. They do not have the right to use disproportionate force to do so. > [@](#): > > Since law enforcement agencies, by and large, accept the taser as safe and there is no conclusive evidence that it’s not, I don’t see a problem with it being used in the manner it was used in this video. Which is fine and dandy for you and law enforcement. Not so much for people who think that they’re talking to (or arguing) with a police officer and then get slammed with an electrical appliance. > [@](#): > > As for expedience, it should be obvious that there is no shortage of opportunities to enforce the law and I don’t see any reason to expect an officer to spend an extraordinate amount of time dealing with unnecessary non-compliance with lawful orders if he has the tools available to force compliance in a more timely manner. Well then, let’s just shoot anybody who gets mouthy in the shoulder or the knee. It immobilizes them, is unlikely to be lethal, ends the resistance and gets things dealt with quickly. Wouldn’t want to waste time with all that pesky police work. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/348 "2009-06-15T16:35:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > False. > > [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html) [Not false.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident) > [@](#): > > An autopsy for the British Columbia Coroner’s Service did not determine the cause of death, citing no trauma or disease, nor pre-existing medical conditions. When are you going to come up with conclusive evidence? As far as I can tell, this incident is still being investigated and is far from conclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/349 "2009-06-15T16:44:51Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah, and there are no studies that indicate electricity is dangerous. :rolleyes:. Come on. So, you’re just going to ignore the science. Okay, then. Guess we’re done. > [@](#): > > You’re starting to sound an awful lot like a sales rep from Taser International. Your source is hardly impartial and I have trouble trusting it over multiple other sources including coroners who have actually performed the autopsies on these people. Which source? And coroners are regular people with biases as well. Just like many other professionals, they sometimes allow their biases to cloud their work. Is it that impossible that a coroner would file a faulty report out of either bias or inexperience? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/350 "2009-06-15T16:51:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I mean, you realize that electricity has been used for over a century as a method of _execution_, right? Arguing that tasers aren’t what’s killing these people seems naive at best, and extremely disingenuous at worst. You do not come off as naive. This is just embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/351 "2009-06-15T16:58:28Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > [Not false.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident) > > When are you going to come up with conclusive evidence? As far as I can tell, this incident is still being investigated and is far from conclusive. Wooooowww. Really? Occam’s Razor pretty conclusively says the convulsion-inducing shocks moments before death were the cause of death in this case. Sure it’s theoretically possible that something else was about to kill him at that very moment (though it probably has less than Powerball odds), but if that’s what you believe then the burden of proof is solidly on you to prove it. > [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > So, you’re just going to ignore the science. Okay, then. Guess we’re done. You’re ignoring every source (including logic and common sense) except the one that agrees with you. The one done by an organization started by police that works with and trains policemen. The one that suports “excited delirium” which appears to be a term rooted in 19th century pseudoscience that is only used when someone dies in police custody. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/352 "2009-06-15T17:01:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > This is just embarrassing. No, it’s embarassing when a guy with no pre-existing condition is tasered 4 times, convulses, and then dies on the spot, and people argue that tasers didn’t kill him. Brown-eyed girl is basically using the same logic that you could use to say AIDS has never killed anyone, except there’s more evidence that tasers actually have. A stronger case could literally be made, using her logic, that AIDS is non-lethal. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/353 "2009-06-15T17:09:37Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > It can be effective and it can backfire. When it backfires, the person who has authority needs to recognize that and try something else. It seems to me he did recognize that and moved on to something else. “Step back or you will be tasered” x 5. That didn’t work, either. But I’ll bet she’ll remember the juice the next time she gets pulled over for speeding. I’d put money on the fact that she signs that next ticket post haste. > [@](#): > > And once again, I reiterate that I don’t care if the deaths can be _directly_ attributed to the Taser. If the Taser contributed to the deaths, then it’s a problem. But just because you say so doesn’t make it so. > [@](#): > > See, the thing is, we’ll never know if the underlying diseases or the drug use or the arrests themselves would’ve killed those people, because of the fact that the Taser was used. It complicates the question. It complicates their health status. You can’t attribute directly, but you cannot rule it out as a factor. There is no way to know because you cannot remove the Taser from the equation. Ah, but you can. In-custody deaths from many of the contributing factors listed above were occurring long before tasers were put into use by the police. Excited Delirium Syndrome was recognized in 1985. Drug-induced toxicity even before that. So, absence any conclusive evidence to the contrary, you can say that Tasers are not causing in-custody deaths. > [@](#): > > Quite clearly, but a Taser isn’t a simple electric shock. The action of the Taser is much different than the action of, for instance, sticking a metal fork into a toaster. Or grabbing an improperly grounded microphone while in a puddle of water. Or being put in an electric chair. Therefore the reaction of the body isn’t going to be the same. No, it is the same. It is an electrical shock delivered at low current than is fatal. As noted above, house current and that used in electrocution is many times greater than that delivered by a taser. But they’re all electricity. The body doesn’t know the difference between electricity delivered by a Taser and that by a fork in an electrical box because there is no difference except in volume and intensity. > [@](#): > > Why are _you_ presuming that if a Tasered person’s death doesn’t mimic an electrocution death then the Taser cannot be implicated? Because if a person was killed by a taser it would be an electrocution, which is what we call death by electricity, you see. It should mimic it…exactly. > [@](#): > > They do not have the right to use disproportionate force to do so. I agree. But considering the lack of serious injury generally produced by tasers, I can’t see how it can be considered disproportionate. Would it have been disproportionate if he had physically restrained her in order to implement the arrest? What if that resulted in breaking her wrist or arm? As far as I know, granny walked away from that event with no lasting physical harm, other than small puncture wounds and perhaps some minor bruising. I admit I am assuming this, of course, given lack of a report of emergency medicine being administered. > [@](#): > > Which is fine and dandy for you and law enforcement. Not so much for people who think that they’re talking to (or arguing) with a police officer and then get slammed with an electrical appliance. It must have been such a shock for her, given that she was warned five times. Yes, I see what I did there. > [@](#): > > Well then, let’s just shoot anybody who gets mouthy in the shoulder or the knee. It immobilizes them, is unlikely to be lethal, ends the resistance and gets things dealt with quickly. Wouldn’t want to waste time with all that pesky police work. Yes, let’s add more serious injuries, with perhaps lasting consequences, and further tax emergency medicine. You don’t really believe that’s even a fair comparison and you know damn well I’ve not suggested anything like that. But so long as you can inject hyperbole into the discussion, you’ve got to rely on any argument, however lame, that you can, right? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/354 "2009-06-15T17:20:28Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > No, it’s embarassing when a guy with no pre-existing condition is tasered 4 times, convulses, and then dies on the spot, and people argue that tasers didn’t kill him. Brown-eyed girl is basically using the same logic that you could use to say AIDS has never killed anyone, except there’s more evidence that tasers actually have. A stronger case could literally be made, using her logic, that AIDS is non-lethal. If I do it just right, I can stab a guy to death with a toothpick. But you won’t see me equating toothpicks with 8 inch hunting knifes either. Did you not know that stabbing has been a form of killing people since man first came down out a the trees? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/355 "2009-06-15T17:24:49Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I’ll bet she’ll remember the juice the next time she gets pulled over for speeding. I’d put money on the fact that she signs that next ticket post haste. Mmhmm, and there’s the crux of it for you, huh? Forced compliance by electrocution. Now it’s time to turn the question around, Brown Eyed Girl: is there anytime when a taser’s use is _not_ warranted? Can you give us a video example? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/356 "2009-06-15T17:26:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > If I do it just right, I can stab a guy to death with a toothpick. > > But you won’t see me equating toothpicks with 8 inch hunting knifes either. > > Did you not know that stabbing has been a form of killing people since man first came down out a the trees? :rolleyes: If police were poking people to death with toothpicks (but blaming it on a condition that can’t be tested for or proven and in all likelihood doesn’t even exist), I hope you would say “DUH! It’s called stabbing!” ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/357 "2009-06-15T17:26:18Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wooooowww. Really? Occam’s Razor pretty conclusively says the convulsion-inducing shocks moments before death were the cause of death in this case. I don’t believe the coroners name is Occam’s Razor, but can you cite the report that indicates cause of death in this case, because I just linked to the wiki that says COD is undetermined. Just how many facts about this case do you have other than what you have seen on the intarwebz, because you seem to have more information than the coroner does? I asked for conclusive evidence and I’m pretty sure that doesn’t come out of one’s ass. > [@](#): > > Sure it’s theoretically possible that something else was about to kill him at that very moment (though it probably has less than Powerball odds), but if that’s what you believe then the burden of proof is solidly on you to prove it. I don’t have to prove shit. I’ve already posted my evidence indicating the safety of tasers. You’ve yet come up with any conclusive evidence contradicting it. But you keep posting inconclusive or disproven taser controversies that don’t amount to much. Because if you just did a little more research, you’d get pertinent information that contradicts your theory. > [@](#): > > You’re ignoring every source (including logic and common sense) except the one that agrees with you. I’m dismissing the theory that tasers kill as unproven. I’m perfectly willing to consider evidence beyond “well, it makes sense.” But every source you link to is faulty in its conclusions. That’s not my fault. Find some better data. > [@](#): > > The one done by an organization started by police that works with and trains policemen. The one that suports “excited delirium” which appears to be a term rooted in 19th century pseudoscience that is only used when someone dies in police custody. You mean the [Institute for the Prevention of In-Custody Deaths, Inc.](http://www.ipicd.com/)? You mean the same organization whose mission is to provide “interested parties with objective, timely, accurate, qualitative and quantitative information, training, and operational guidance for the prevention and management of sudden- and in-custody deaths.” Gee, I can’t believe I would quote such a clearly biased organization. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/358 "2009-06-15T17:33:12Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I’m dismissing the theory that tasers kill as unproven. . . . :rolleyes: . . . I’m dismissing the theories that cigarettes and AIDS kill as unproven. If you continue to ignore everything that doesn’t support your pre-conceived conclusion and can’t bring yourself to admit that IPICD seems less than impartial, then there’s no point continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/359 "2009-06-15T17:34:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Mmhmm, and there’s the crux of it for you, huh? Forced compliance by electrocution. Um, who was electrocuted? > [@](#): > > Now it’s time to turn the question around, Brown Eyed Girl: is there anytime when a taser’s use is _not_ warranted? Can you give us a video example? I have already noted more than once that any taser use for the purpose of torturing an already restrained individual is absolutely wrong. Police abuse of any kind (and yes, I believe as with any law enforcement tool, tasers can be used to abuse) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I haven’t seen any, but can you link to a video in which the taser is not used to force compliance of lawful orders? Like, oh I don’t know, a cop walking up to someone and tasering them out of the blue. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/360 "2009-06-15T17:35:37Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If police were poking people to death with toothpicks (but blaming it on a condition that can’t be tested for or proven and in all likelihood doesn’t even exist), I hope you would say “DUH! It’s called stabbing!” No, I’d be saying that toothpick stabbing deaths, while unfortunate, are probably less lethal overall than big metal knife stabbings, or gun shots, or even beat downs to get the cuffs on. THATS the real issue. If someone comes up with a stat that tazers are MORE lethal on average than say a beatdown to subdue someone, I’ll admit that tazers are probably used more than they should be. Of course, that still doesnt mean they don’t have thier place. That woman was ASKING for some sort of physical action, and she had plenty of opportunities to decline such action. Again, equating tazers with capital punishment electrocutions is embarrassing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=19)