# Texas Cop Tasers Granny **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417 "2009-06-11T04:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/381 "2009-06-15T18:56:22Z")
[More from Bieze’s direct superior:](http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story/Harsh-words-exchanged-after-Austin-Grandma-tased/yCv2b8Ft-kWPIS7DZ6CAEg.cspx) > [@](#): > > Sgt. Major Griffin admitted to us his Deputy could have handled the situation better. > > “Maybe we could have, ya know, talked to her a little more, tried more, he said, and then added. “It wouldn’t of worked.” Of course he ends on a weak assumption to try to cast a good light on his deputy, but it’s clear he realizes his guy was wrong. When senior policemen, who are notorious for defending their own, are acknowledging that this didn’t go the way it should have, it’s time for dopers to start rethinking the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/382 "2009-06-15T19:00:18Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I don’t know who you’re addressing but I never made that argument. I don’t give a shit if she was 20. The cop repeatedly escalated the situation when he didn’t have to. Oh bullshit! Read your comments throughout this thread about how old and delicate she was, about how your grandmother broke her femur and she’s only 2 years younger than this woman. **ywtf** , in this case, the use of the taser is DEFINITELY much, much better than using a billy club, or trying to wrestle her to the ground. She’s much more likely to be harmed that way. Would I have supported him whacking her with a club? No. However, he didn’t do so. He did not beat her. He used a taser to stun her. There is a difference, whether you believe it or not. The speeding ticket wasn’t the problem. She refused to sign it, and then he told if she did not do so, she would be under arrest – and she still refused to do so, taunting him about arresting “a 72-year-old woman.” So, she was arrested for refusing to SIGN said traffic ticket, and then she continued to resist arrest. And again, yes, it IS important to watch if if you’re going to comment. It’s like people who come into threads, “Well, I haven’t read the whole thing, but…” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/383 "2009-06-15T19:00:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > In the video everyone has watched, the policeman’s superior defends Bieze. I was going to ask if anyone here would change their tune if an even more senior officer denounced Bieze’s actions. I was just going to ask it as a hypothetical, but since it actually happened, now I ask it as a real life question. > > [The Sheriff of the county in which this took place:](http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2009m6d10-Sheriff-denounces-Tasering-of-woman-in-traffic-incident) > > So, this change any opinions? In awe? Strange choice of words. I’d like to hear him comment on how he thinks it should have gone. I still wonder if the option to let her go and allow her to face the more serious consequences of leaving was an option for the officer. I don’t know what their specific instructions are. His opinion doesn’t change my mind. I wish it hadn’t happened but it’s still 95% her fault. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/384 "2009-06-15T19:00:35Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Just in case my first post went unnoticed, I’ll ask again. > > To those who think the officer did the right thing, would you support him if he had hit her with a billy club instead of tasing her? > > And I’m not talking about blocking her movement with a club, but actually wacking her to make her submit. Is there a substantive difference between these actions that make one justifiable while the other not? That’s one of the advantages of the Tazer - it offers another alternative between verbal commands (which seem to have been ineffective in this case as far as getting the old bat to comply with the law), and inflicting the kind of damage that a billy can do. You do realize that, a few days later, the cantankerous old bitch was up and able to go on camera and lie thru her teeth without a mark on her, or any sign of lasting damage at all? Clubbing her into submission would have had significantly more consequences. There are ways to use a billy club that don’t leave marks - a good hard jab to the solar plexus can sometimes disable while leaving little or no external marking - but it also carries a non-zero risk of injury or even death. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/385 "2009-06-15T19:04:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh bullshit! Read your comments throughout this thread about how old and delicate she was, about how your grandmother broke her femur and she’s only 2 years younger than this woman. Those are what are called aggravating factors, Guinastasia. They make things worse, but their absence wouldn’t have justified the situation. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/386 "2009-06-15T19:05:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Would I have supported him whacking her with a club? No. However, he didn’t do so. He did not beat her. He used a taser to stun her. There is a difference, whether you believe it or not. > … > > :rolleyes: What the hell? I just asked a question and I get _this_ argumentative cockadoodle? I hate threads about cops. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/387 "2009-06-15T19:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **you with the face** > Just in case my first post went unnoticed, I’ll ask again. > > To those who think the officer did the right thing, would you support him if he had hit her with a billy club instead of tasing her? > > And I’m not talking about blocking her movement with a club, but actually wacking her to make her submit. Is there a substantive difference between these actions that make one justifiable while the other not? We see the officer try to cuff her and she resists. I think his choice was to physically grapple with her to force her to submit or to use the taser. I doubt a billy club would ever be necessary. He may have decided the taser had less of a chance of hurting her than a physically forcing her arms behind her. That being said, I’ve acknowledged I don’t know what his options are according to procedure and training. I’d think the last resort was to use violence of any sort on an elderly person if other options are available. so, No I wouldn’t support him and yes there’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/388 "2009-06-15T19:16:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just in case my first post went unnoticed, I’ll ask again. > > To those who think the officer did the right thing, would you support him if he had hit her with a billy club instead of tasing her? > > And I’m not talking about blocking her movement with a club, but actually wacking her to make her submit. Is there a substantive difference between these actions that make one justifiable while the other not? Having given this some thought, I would have to say given the situation as it actually existed, I would not have supported the officer using a billy club on granny. Why? Because he had, at his disposal, a tool that is, as far as I can tell, less likely to cause severe and/or long-lasting injury. It’s my opinion, that given all available evidence, the taser was a safer choice to elicit compliance with his lawful orders than a billy club is. That’s the great thing about this technology and why so many agencies are using it. It enables officers to accomplish their job with less risk to themselves and arrestees. If he did not have a taser available, I would have expected him to mace her in order to elicit compliance. I’m sure that would have worked just as well, although the effects of it tend to last a lot longer. Since I’m posting from my doctor’s office while waiting for an appointment and will be heading to work directly after, I’ll have to wait until later tonight to reply to the more in-depth responses. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/389 "2009-06-15T19:24:16Z")
NETA: I see several people beat me while I was in the car heading to my appointment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/390 "2009-06-15T19:24:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What the hell? I just asked a question and I get _this_ argumentative cockadoodle? > > I hate threads about cops. I’m sorry, I’m just sick of this whole, “what if she was your grandmother?” “What if she had a hear attack?” “What if blah blah blah?” Look, let’s put it this way: WHY the comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/391 "2009-06-15T19:26:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I hate threads about cops. Possibly the most observant and true comment of the thread. It’s kind of funny that so many people on a board full of lefties are so rabidly, unconditionally, unshakably pro-police. I generally like and respect the police but they can and do fuck up occasionally I think they need to be extra accountable for it. We trust them with a lot of authority. Certain topics just cannot be discussed rationally here, though. I need to just ignore threads about police, obesity, and Pixar. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/392 "2009-06-15T19:32:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What is the potential harm associated with letting her go and then putting a warrant out for her arrest? Is he going to have better luck arresting her next week? Or does he give up that time too, let her go, and try to arrest her again some other time? Ultimately, police officers are the “long arm of the law”, they are the hands that give the law enforceability. If the enforcement arm of the government backs down every time things become unpleasant, it’s a guarantee that things will become unpleasant on a very regular basis. I agree that a speeding ticket is a stupid thing to get tasered/clubbed/arrested over, but Granny is the stupid one, turning a minor problem into a major problem entirely because she didn’t want to sign her ticket, and didn’t want to follow his orders when she was being arrested. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/393 "2009-06-15T19:38:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > That being said, I’ve acknowledged I don’t know what his options are according to procedure and training. I’d think the last resort was to use violence of any sort on an elderly person if other options are available. I don’t know what his options were either. In these types of situations, where a arrested is warranted, but the threat that the perp poses is minor (based on their primary crime) and certain restraint techniques carry unknown risks, it seems multiple factors should go into deciding the appropriate action to take. Not just whether the person is being cooperative. But I don’t know if cops are told to make decisions in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/394 "2009-06-15T20:00:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Look, let’s put it this way: WHY the comparison? Why have a debate in the first place? Why post anything in this thread? A billy club is used for the same purpose as a taser: to compell submission through less-lethal force. Clubbing often causes bruising and injury, while tasering causes pain and systemic incapaciation without directing injurying someone. There are risks associated with both devices. But the tools are meant to do the same thing. I’m simply interested in hearing if people would support one but not another. And if they do, why. And if anyone is an expert in this department, I’d be interested in knowing if there are guidelines for taser use that coincide with those for using a club. Meaning, if you’re in a situation in which hitting someone with a club or similar device would be considered excessive force, does that make the taser excessive too. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/395 "2009-06-15T20:03:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Possibly the most observant and true comment of the thread. It’s kind of funny that so many people on a board full of lefties are so rabidly, unconditionally, unshakably pro-police. Observant and true. IOW, you are so smart, just like ME ! And are you complaining that the stereotypical leftist liberals here arent stereotypical ENOUGH ? Well, I gotta hand it to you there, thats a complaint you dont hear very often. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/396 "2009-06-15T20:14:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Observant and true. IOW, you are so smart, just like ME ! > > And are you complaining that the stereotypical leftist liberals here arent stereotypical ENOUGH ? Well, I gotta hand it to you there, thats a complaint you dont hear very often. All I said is that it was funny, in a throw-away post that basically signals my time spent in this thread is wrapping up. I have my opinions which I’ve stated dozens of times, and the county Sheriff and Sgt. Major seem to at least somewhat agree with me, and you guys have your opinions. I suffer no delusions that you guys will concede Bieze was wrong, even in the face of local senior law enforcement officers saying he was wrong. That’d be acknowledging that your 8 pages of foot-stamping was pointed in the wrong direction, and you couldn’t possibly do that. I know. Nice job ignoring my 2 very relevant posts above the irrelevant one you quoted, though. Very nice job. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/397 "2009-06-15T20:16:14Z")
[quote=“Cheesesteak, post:392, topic:499417”] Is he going to have better luck arresting her next week? Or does he give up that time too, let her go, and try to arrest her again some other time? [q/uote] If the woman had gotten into her truck and fled the scene, would the cop been justified in engaging in a high speed chase? If no, what would be the appropriate alternative. And why would this alternative be unreasonable in this case? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/398 "2009-06-15T20:18:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t know what his options were either. In these types of situations, where a arrested is warranted, but the threat that the perp poses is minor (based on their primary crime) and certain restraint techniques carry unknown risks, it seems multiple factors should go into deciding the appropriate action to take. Not just whether the person is being cooperative. > > But I don’t know if cops are told to make decisions in this manner. But if you are going to arrest them and they refuse to cooperate then some sort of restraint is required. The taser as I understand it, is used to prevent cops from having to physically injure someone while they resist , and to protect the cop form being within range of a blow or whatever. Why should an officer get within range of a kick in the balls when he has a taser? That’s assuming, being a grandmother, she knew where balls are located. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/399 "2009-06-15T20:22:20Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is he going to have better luck arresting her next week? Or does he give up that time too, let her go, and try to arrest her again some other time? {knock knock} “Who is it?” “It’s the officer who tried to arrest you out on the highway a few days ago. Now that you’ve had some time to calm down I was wondering if you’d let me arrest you now” “Fuck off oinker!” “That’s a no then? OKay, I’ll be back in a couple of days to check again” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/400 "2009-06-15T20:29:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If the woman had gotten into her truck and fled the scene, would the cop been justified in engaging in a high speed chase? If no, what would be the appropriate alternative. And why would this alternative be unreasonable in this case? Since we’re talking hypotheticals. If she had tried to bribe him with sex would he have been justified in making a face sorta like [this](http://xda.xanga.com/b57c254534330180156424/z137640726.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=21)