# Texas Cop Tasers Granny **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417 "2009-06-11T04:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/421 "2009-06-16T02:01:33Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Now that I know you are doing this intentionally simply because you are unconvinced, and uninterested in actually producing any argument, I suppose I won’t bother to respond to your disingenuous nonsense. At last, something we agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/422 "2009-06-16T02:02:26Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I am afraid you are dead wrong yet again, which is becoming quite a pattern for you in this thread. Read post #381. The link in that post directly contradicts what you’re asserting and directly supports Shodan’s contention. > [@](#): > > Sgt. Major Griffin admitted to us his Deputy could have handled the situation better. > > “Maybe we could have, ya know, talked to her a little more, tried more, he said, and then added. “It wouldn’t of worked.” > > [snip] > > Sgt. Major Griffin then pulled out the policy manual. > > “You know where I got it,” he asked CBS 42’s Katherine Stolp? > > He told us it came from the Sheriff’s Office. **And said his Deputy followed all the rules outlined in the manual the day he tased Kathryn Winkfein**. Seems this is becoming quite a pattern for you in this thread. Is it just a war of attrition for you at this point, as you throw out more and more misleading horseshit in the hope others will give up on correcting you? So you can salvage your pride and declare victory in a dead thread? Dream on, chum. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/423 "2009-06-16T02:59:57Z")
Well, a lot has been said since I left for work a few hours ago and I’m not sure where to pick up from, but I simply can’t ignore about the most asinine argument of the entire thread: > [@NoJustice](#): > > If it isn’t relevant then why did you need to answer it? You know damn well it’s relevant. It’s a logical conclusion from the claims that have been made. If the angry granny forfeited her rights when she resisted arrest, and the officer is then allowed to do whatever he feels or whatever is expedient than why can’t he just shoot her in the head?.. There’s no logic to your conclusion that justifying the use of a non/less-lethal taser further justifies the use of deadly force. It’s not even close to the same thing and you know it. Nobody, other than you, that deadly force ought to be used to force compliance. You are also the only one suggesting that granny forfeited rights by resisting arrest, yet you haven’t decided to tell anyone what rights those were. The fact is she didn’t forfeit any rights and her rights were not compromised by the officer’s actions in any way. The officer used his judgment, in accordance with policy, to determine the best way to enforce compliance with his legal orders, in accordance with policy, and fulfill his duties as a law enforcement officer while trying to do so in a safe and expedient manner. You may not agree with that judgment, but those of us whose knees aren’t quite so twitchy don’t see a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/424 "2009-06-16T03:00:26Z")
Myself, I don’t really see the billy-club thing as valid (although _in this particular case_, I’d probably look the other way if he whacked that cow up the side of her head :p). The taser was probably less likely to injure granny than having her brittle bones manhandled. Not so the billy club. But since we’re exploring Hypothetical Land, what if he had fragged her with a grenade or dropped a rattlesnake down her blouse? Would you all support him then? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/425 "2009-06-16T03:00:42Z")
You can always count on the police for a fair analysis of a situation. The cops are never at fault. They were just forced by the situation to subdue a dangerous and belligerent old woman. She was a genuine threat and he could have justified shooting her. he kept a level head and merely tased her. I always go to the police and politicians to give me the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/426 "2009-06-16T03:05:17Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The link in that post directly contradicts what you’re asserting and directly supports Shodan’s contention. > > Seems this is becoming quite a pattern for you in this thread. Is it just a war of attrition for you at this point, as you throw out more and more misleading horseshit in the hope others will give up on correcting you? So you can salvage your pride and declare victory in a dead thread? Dream on, chum. Wrong. It has never been anyone’s arguments that Bieze broke procedure or laws. If that’s what Shodan’s point was, he was attacking a straw man. I’ve been saying that he could have handled the situation better, and the Sgt. Major agrees with me. The Sheriff of the county this took place in also agrees with me, and regardless of whether or not Bieze reports to him, a high-ranking local official’s opinion should carry some weight. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/427 "2009-06-16T03:05:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can always count on the police for a fair analysis of a situation. The cops are never at fault. They were just forced by the situation to subdue a dangerous and belligerent old woman. She was a genuine threat and he could have justified shooting her. he kept a level head and merely tased her. I always go to the police and politicians to give me the truth. And this is really crux of the matter. You just can’t trust the police. They are always doing something wrong and they will always cover it up and lie to protect themselves. Really. Sometimes a pig is just a pig. No sense trying to debate with you anymore. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/428 "2009-06-16T03:26:22Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Well, a lot has been said since I left for work a few hours ago and I’m not sure where to pick up from, but I simply can’t ignore about the most asinine argument of the entire thread: > There’s no logic to your conclusion that justifying the use of a non/less-lethal taser further justifies the use of deadly force. Perhaps this should have been your first clue that this conclusion you refer to doesn’t exist. It was _HOW_ you were justifying the use of a non/less-lethal taser, which also justified the use of deadly force. If you think it’s asinine… _ **THAT’S THE POINT!** _ > [@](#): > > Nobody, other than you, that deadly force ought to be used to force compliance. Nobody including me. I don’t see how you could have been so terribly mistaken, unless like **Telemark** you are uninterested in actually presenting an argument, and have decided to voice your baseless disagreement by posting random nonsense. > [@](#): > > You are also the only one suggesting that granny forfeited rights by resisting arrest ?..and where did I do that? I can guess where you might _THINK_ did… but I’d suggest you actually read it before quoting. 🙂 > [@](#): > > The officer used his judgment, in accordance with policy, to determine the best way to enforce compliance with his legal orders, in accordance with policy, and fulfill his duties as a law enforcement officer while trying to do so in a safe and expedient manner. He judged badly. If he can’t do better than that, he should quit or be fired. > [@](#): > > You may not agree with that judgment, but those of us whose knees aren’t quite so twitchy don’t see a problem with it. The fact you fail to see something does not mean it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/429 "2009-06-16T03:26:59Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wrong. It has never been anyone’s arguments that Bieze broke procedure or laws. :smack: What have you been wasting all of our time for, then? Apparently, you’re (now?) willing to admit that the deputy did his job just the way he should have. You just adopt a wholly unrelated elected official’s PR weasel words that the deputy just should have somehow “handled it better”, for whatever shifting value of “better” you can dig out of your bowels in response to any given post. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/430 "2009-06-16T04:03:41Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > :smack: What have you been wasting all of our time for, then? Apparently, you’re (now?) willing to admit that the deputy did his job just the way he should have. You just adopt a wholly unrelated elected official’s PR weasel words that the deputy just should have somehow “handled it better”, for whatever shifting value of “better” you can dig out of your bowels in response to any given post. No, I’m not saying he did his job just the way he should have. I’m saying he didn’t break procedure or any laws. God damn, you have not been reading this thread, have you? READ before you post. READ before you post. Say it 50 times before bed every night. Maybe eventually you’ll get it. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/431 "2009-06-16T04:14:59Z")
Much to my regret, I have read the entire thing. And although you now admit that he violated no laws and followed the correct procedures, I recall back at the beginning of the thread you said: > [@Cisco](#): > > The cop should do some jail time and never have another job more important than mopping a floor when he gets out. I’m glad I don’t live in whatever jurisdiction you do, if people get thrown in jail and have their careers ruined after violating no law and not breaking any procedure they’ve been trained in, but just because they “should have handled it better.” ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/432 "2009-06-16T04:25:13Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Perhaps this should have been your first clue that this conclusion you refer to doesn’t exist. It was _HOW_ you were justifying the use of a non/less-lethal taser, which also justified the use of deadly force. If you think it’s asinine… _ **THAT’S THE POINT!** _ Dude, I don’t know what you’re smokin, but I never said it justified the use the deadly force. You jumped on that mechanical bull all by yourself, cowboy. > [@](#): > > Nobody including me. > I don’t see how you could have been so terribly mistaken, unless like **Telemark** you are uninterested in actually presenting an argument, and have decided to voice your baseless disagreement by posting random nonsense. Ah well, let’s see… [QUOTE=NoJustice] > [@](#): > > By resisting arrest (as seen on the video) she forfeited her right not to be treated with force. So if the officer felt like it, he could have just pulled out his gun and shot her in the head instead right? I think you know it’s not that simple. [/QUOTE] So…we can establish that you were the one that brought up deadly force. What’s that you say about random nonsense? > [@](#): > > ?..and where did I do that? > I can guess where you might _THINK_ did… but I’d suggest you actually read it before quoting. 🙂 > [@](#): > > He judged badly. Not so much. He did his job in a safe and expedient manner. Nobody got hurt. The law was enforced. His boss recognizes his actions as in accordance with policy. Seems his judgment worked out just fine. > [@](#): > > If he can’t do better than that, he should quit or be fired. Because you are unhappy with the outcome? Boo hoo. > [@](#): > > The fact you fail to see something does not mean it doesn’t exist. Ah, but in this instance I see a cop who did everything by the book (so sayeth his boss) and an immature lady who learned a valuable lesson even at the ripe old age of 72. All seems to be right with the universe from where I’m standing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/433 "2009-06-16T04:27:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m sorry, I’m just sick of this whole, “what if she was your grandmother?” “What if she had a hear attack?” “What if blah blah blah?” > Look, let’s put it this way: WHY the comparison? What if he wrested her to the ground and dislocated her shoulder or broke her calcium depleted bones? What if she went into an asthma attack from pepper spray? We’ll never know because he used the path of least injurious action. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/434 "2009-06-16T04:34:18Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Much to my regret, I have read the entire thing. And although you now admit that he violated no laws and followed the correct procedures, I recall back at the beginning of the thread you said: Yeah . . . I’m not buying that you’ve read the thread, because I’ve said many, many, many times that he was not legally in the wrong, and not once have I said he was legally in the wrong. Or maybe you read the thread and just didn’t comprehend it? Everyone else got it, because only you and Shodan are playing “Ha_HAH!_ GOTCHA!” with the law. What I said should happen to him has no bearing on whether or not what he did was legal, and I acknowledged a few posts later that the post you’re referencing was at least somewhat hyperbolic. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/435 "2009-06-16T04:36:31Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Again… nobody’s asking for the ideal reaction. But if their reaction undermines the very purpose they are meant to serve… how it that better than having fewer of them? You have not established this officer undermined anything. The officers only purpose in this incident was to give a speeder a ticket. It was a nasty old women who made it into something else. His job is to protect and serve. When you go from speeder eligible for a ticket to someone resisting arrest by your own ignorant behavior you become the criminal the rest of society is being protected against. {even if you’re a low grade one} He was serving his purpose by arresting her. I repeat , there are proper guidelines and parameters for police policy and behavior ranging from doing your job correctly without a lot of finesse and the ideal which might be incredible patience and communication skills that diffuse almost every situation Neither society or it’s paid police force owes it to anyone to do more than the minimum of doing the job correctly without finesse. If you roll the dice and become a person warranting arrest you take what you get within those acceptable parameters. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/436 "2009-06-16T04:37:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah . . . I’m not buying that you’ve read the thread, because I’ve said many, many, many times that he was not legally in the wrong, and not once have I said he was legally in the wrong. Or maybe you read the thread and just didn’t comprehend it? Everyone else got it, because only you and Shodan are playing “Ha_HAH!_ GOTCHA!” with the law. What I said should happen to him has no bearing on whether or not what he did was legal, and I acknowledged a few posts later that the post you’re referencing was at least somewhat hyperbolic. You’re laying down some rubber there with all that backtracking. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/437 "2009-06-16T04:38:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah . . . I’m not buying that you’ve read the thread, because I’ve said many, many, many times that he was not legally in the wrong, and not once have I said he was legally in the wrong. Or maybe you read the thread and just didn’t comprehend it? Everyone else got it, because only you and Shodan are playing “Ha_HAH!_ GOTCHA!” with the law. What I said should happen to him has no bearing on whether or not what he did was legal, and I acknowledged a few posts later that the post you’re referencing was at least somewhat hyperbolic. Just ignore that guy. He likes to missread things and strawman then run off to the beach to hide when called on it. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/438 "2009-06-16T04:38:39Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Dude, I don’t know what you’re smokin, but I never said it justified the use the deadly force. You jumped on that mechanical bull all by yourself, cowboy. …and I didn’t say you did. You’re really not big on the whole reading thing are you? > [@](#): > > So…we can establish that you were the one that brought up deadly force. What’s that you say about random nonsense? I never said I didn’t bring up deadly force. Seriously… READ! > [@](#): > > He did his job in a safe and expedient manner. Nobody got hurt. **Newsflash from Brown Eyed Girl: TASERS DON’T HURT!!!** > [@](#): > > Because you are unhappy with the outcome? Boo hoo. Nope… seriously. SERIOUSLY. Just read before responding. > [@](#): > > Ah, but in this instance I see a cop who did everything by the book (so sayeth his boss) and an immature lady who learned a valuable lesson even at the ripe old age of 72. All seems to be right with the universe from where I’m standing. And that’s how it’ll always look as long as you choose to live in your own little world. Good for you. I don’t know why you trouble yourself by posting here though, if you aren’t interested in backing up your opinion in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/439 "2009-06-16T04:51:27Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > READ!**Newsflash from Brown Eyed Girl: > TASERS DON’T HURT!!!** _Sigh._ I’m sure everyone else knew what I meant, but I’ll slow it down for you. Nobody got seriously hurt or in any way that left any long-lasting effects. > [@](#): > > Nope… seriously. SERIOUSLY. Just read before responding.And that’s how it’ll always look as long as you choose to live in your own little world. Good for you. I don’t know why you trouble yourself by posting here though, if you aren’t interested in backing up your opinion in any way. HA! HA ha hahaha! I posted several links to studies and reports by independent authorities analyzing ESDs and their effects as well as actual CODs reported for in-custody deaths and analysis of in-custody deaths. You better damn believe I back up my opinion. I back it up solid, but let me guess. You didn’t read any of it, did you? You have posted exactly \*\*zero \*\*evidence backing up your opinion. I’m under no illusion that you even understand what you’re trying to say anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417/440 "2009-06-16T04:53:02Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You’re laying down some rubber there with all that backtracking. Nice try. Wow. Please tell me you’re not serious. Ok, just do me a favor, and read these posts, posted _pages_ ago, and then come back and acknowledge that you are wrong, ok? Can you do that? > [@Cisco](#): > > I see it. I acknowledged pages ago that I see it. I just think [the law is] stupid and in this case it was used to escalate a very minor situation to ridiculous heights. I doubt there’s a person alive who agrees with every single law on the books in this country, but god forbid you express that disagreement around here. You’re slow, hyperbolic, “just don’t get” things, etc. > [@Cisco](#): > > Am I saying she shouldn’t have followed the law? NO. I follow all sorts of laws I don’t want to follow. I’m saying the cop made a series of extremely poor judgement calls and turned a small situation into something traumatic that could’ve been deadly. > [@Cisco](#): > > People often cite laws in situations like this as the ultimate can’t-touch-me argument. You realize that not all laws are correct, right? I mean, I don’t even have to cite the myriad of positively ghastly laws we’ve had in this country, do I? I honestly don’t give a shit if he was “legally” supposed to take her downtown for not signing the ticket. What he did was wrong, legal or illegal. He made a very dangerous situation out of nothing. Again, these were all hundreds of posts ago. Please acknowledge whatever caused you to accuse me of “backpedaling”, because I’m pretty clearly not. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-cop-tasers-granny/499417.md?page=23)