# Texas Democrats: you've gotta be fucking kiddin me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948 "2003-05-13T13:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/181 "2003-05-15T03:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I Scream In Darkness \* > \*\*TEXAS belongs to Mexico! Give it BAck! \*\* Another idiot…how about the whole Eastern seaboard of the US belongs to Britain?? PLEASE! TAKE IT BACK!! ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/182 "2003-05-15T04:31:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _minty green:_ > No legal authority that I have ever seen says the Legislature _should_ redistrict after the courts have settled the issue. From the AG’s opinion: > [@](#): > > The United States Supreme Court has reminded the parties on many occasions that “reapportionment is primarily the duty and responsibility of the state through its legislature or other body, rather than of a federal court.” _Growe_, 507 U.S. at 34 (quoting _Chapman v. Meier_, 420 U.S. 1, 27 (1975)); _see also, e.g., Branch v. Smith_, 123 S.Ct. 1429, 1444 (2003) (“it certainly remains preferable for the State’s legislature to complete its required redistricting”); _Perry v. Del Rio_, 67 S.W.2d at 91 (“The Legislature is the department constitutionally responsible for apportioning the State into federal congressional legislative districts.”). > . . . . > This federal court-drawn map, however, is only effective unless and until the Texas Legislature redraws it–that is, unless and until lawmakers “renew and continue efforts to fulfill their constitutional duties.” Colleton County Council v. McConnell, 201 F.Supp.2d 618, 630 (D.S.C. 2002). > . . . . > The difficulties of harmonizing competing legal doctrines, the expense of protracted litigation, and the inherent electoral calculations may entice states to defer to the courts for a definitive resolution, but these political challenges are precisely and properly entrusted to the duly elected state legislators, not judges, and legislators should not flinch from their constitutional duty to enter the “political thicket” of redistricting. _Gaffney v. Cummings_, 412 U.S. 735, 750 (1973). > . . . . > The Texas Legislature is consitutionally responsible for apportioning the State into congressional districts. Those all sound to me like legal authority saying the Legislature _should_ redistrict, especially if the courts drew the lines initially. Nobody is (or at least, nobody should) be arguing that the Legislature is _required_ to reapportion the congressional districts. But there is a lot of authority saying that they should. That’s why it’s ridiculous for the Dems to run to Oklahoma. Not only are they breaking House rules, but they’re doing it for the express purpose of shirking their constitutional duty, and they’re doing it for the sole purpose of keeping their jobs. I would hope that job security would play 2nd fiddle to doing your job as a legislator. (Unrealistic, I know, but I’m just a pie-eyed optimist.) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/183 "2003-05-15T05:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke of Rat \* > \*\*Why would they want to re-draw the boundaries?? Because the could?? \*\* DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER! Now, there are still two questions to answer before we get into a “right” or “wrong” type of issue. Everyone agrees the legislature has the right to re-district, even outside of census years(although re-districting in Texas is a very ugly situation and doing it without voters knowing it was coming when they last voted is pretty clearly improper). All of this hinges upon the acceptance of the following proposition. The only legitimate goal of redistricting is to ensure the constituents interests are represented in the proper proportions. Ideological interests, racial interests, economic interests, etc, it is all still the constituents interests. Question 1. Are the districts properly drawn now? This means, is the makeup of the representative state legislature and the district-bound representatives to the federal legislature representative of the interests of the population. Opinions vary on this, and if it were conclusive that the representation is not proportional to the interests of the constituents, then clearly redistricting would be needed. Clearly Tom DeLay thinks they suck, and I’ll admit that a 17-D 15-R federal representation seems a bit out of kilter on the surface, but as courts have repeatedly held, the results of a single election can not be considered conclusive evidence of inequity. Perhaps the Dems won some of those seats because the Republican candidates just plain sucked. Not everyone votes party line. It is perfectly possible to vote Republican in a local election and still want to send a Democrat to the Federal congress. This seeming disjunction is not proof of the districts being incorrect now. Question 2. Is the proposed re-districting plan going to remedy inequities in the representation of constituent interests or create a different set of inequities? It seems to be a fair consensus that the re-districting plan currently on the table is not going to produce a set of representatives who accurately reflect the interests of their constituents. Splitting Austin into five different districts puts the more-frequently Democratic city dwellers in with a lot of people in more rural areas. The gulf between what a Austinite feels are his best interests and wants his representative to fight for and what someone in the lower Rio Grande Valley(near the Mexican border) wants his representatives to do is just too wide. A district which combines part of Austin with sections of the lower Rio Grande Valley is simply ludicrous. And, yes, [exactly such a district has been proposed](http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1278840). Quite frankly some of the proposed districts make no sense. [Here is a map of Texas with counties identified](http://www.county.org/resources/countydata/datafiles/maps/CountyMap.pdf)(PDF). If you do absolutely nothing else, look at a map of Texas and look at some of the counties the current plan would lump together. Do a quick google for a county name if you aren’t familiar with the state’s geography, then look at a county-based local newspaper. Compare, for instance, the [Cherokee County Herald](http://news.mywebpal.com/index.cfm?pnpid=726&om=0) and some of their top stories and then consider that the things these people care about will probably fall by the wayside because a representative from their new district would most likely have to cowtow to the interests of the much larger constituent base in North Dallas(yep, another proposed district would link Cherokee county, rural area, hundreds of miles South-East of D/FW, with North Dallas, one of the most prosperous(and new) suburban areas in the metroplex). A burning issue in Cherokee - Rennovation and re-building of older government buildings, schools, and private buildings. The burning issue in North Dallas - Recovering from the massive hemmoraging of jobs in the wake of the downturn in the tech sector. State Rep. Mike Hamilton® said it very well > [@](#): > > State Rep. Mike Hamilton is so worried that Southeast Texas may lose it’s voice in Congress that he may vote against a redistricting plan sponsored by his fellow Republicans. > … > Hamilton is the District 19 state representative with a district that includes his native Mauriceville and parts of Orange County, along with Hardin and Newton counties. He said Friday he and others will try to negotiate language in the bill that allows rural Southeast Texas to have a Congressman elected from this area. > > “As long we have representatives that actually represent us I can be happy,” Hamilton said. > > The bill will redraw the lines of U.S. Congressional districts in Texas and create a new District 1 that will include Orange, Newton, Jasper, Hardin, parts of Jefferson County and Chambers county north of Interstate 10 and parts of Shelby, San Augustine and Sabine Counties. > > It would also include parts of the Houston area near Humble, a heavily populated and Republican district, Hamilton said. > … > Candidates elected in the new district would not understand or represent the needs of the rural districts such as junior water rights. > > “A representative from Houston would not understand us. We are close in driving distance but so far away in values and philosophy,” Hamilton said. Quite frankly I think that even if we assume the answer to question 1 is “No, the districts are currently not representative of the people’s interests” that the answer to question 2 still trumps. It is not right to compound the issue by swinging the balance too far in the other direction. We need a remedy, not a new disease. If it could be proven that the answer to question 1 is that the districts are not representative as they are(a devilishly difficult thing to actually prove, I know), then I’ll agree that something needs to be done. Come to the table with something that can fairly remedy the inequity and if the Dems break quorom to block it then they deserve to be tossed on their ears. Enjoy, Steven On Preview: **Age Quod Agis** , actually many of the representatives who hitailed to Oklahoma would not be in danger from the re-districting. They are state representatives. Most of the power shifts would be in the representatives of Texas to the Federal legislature. I haven’t seen much made of the plans, if there are any, to re-district the local state government official’s districts. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/184 "2003-05-15T06:55:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > \*\*Incidentally, minty, your back and forth with Dewey is one of the funniest and most creative things I’ve ever seen on these boards. \*\* And what am I? Chopped liver? [sub]If anyone says “No, you’re an Aggie, duh” I swear I will hunt them down and personally do something unpleasant to each of their extremities[/sub] Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/185 "2003-05-15T11:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > Those all sound to me like legal authority saying the Legislature _should_ redistrict, especially if the courts drew the lines initially. Nope. Abbott’s spinning it every which way he can, but he’s only saying that it’s primarily the Lege’s responsibility to redistrict, and that they can do so. That’s entirely different from what you’re suggesting, which would be more along the lines of a court ruling that the court’s districts will apply to the next election, and after that the Lege is supposed or required to redistrict themselves. Can =! should. > [@](#): > > Not only are they breaking House rules, but they’re doing it for the express purpose of shirking their constitutional duty, and they’re doing it for the sole purpose of keeping their jobs. Nope. We’re talking only about _Congressional_ redistricting. The districts for the Texas House and Senate are not being touched. Lloyd Doggett and Martin Frost would be losing their jobs under DeLay’s map, not that asshat Jim Dunnam. And it’s not like job security means a whole lot to a Texas legislator. They make only a pittance, something like $5,000 a year. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/186 "2003-05-15T11:40:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > And what am I? Chopped liver? No, that’s your A&M diploma. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/187 "2003-05-15T12:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > \*\*Incidentally, **minty** , your back and forth with **Dewey** is one of the funniest and most creative things I’ve ever seen on these boards. \*\* You are also welcome, although I hasten to point out that this is pretty easy stuff for Texans – disparaging comments about Oklahoma flow like a river from our mouths. Shooting fish in a barrel, really. A very small barrel. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/188 "2003-05-15T13:43:39Z")
Excellent thread guys 🙂 enlightening, entertaining, interesting and funny I’m lucky I haven’t spit coffee on my keyboard yet. Esp. **elucidator’s** crack about Texas women…yep, they got a mind of their own and more cajone’s that most yankee men. I wish I had time to fully involve myself. "til then keep up the Texas spirit and … **HOOK-EM** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/189 "2003-05-15T15:23:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*No, that’s your A&M diploma. > > 😛 \*\* SHHH!! Goddamnit you’re not supposed to talk about that! If PETA ever found out that A&M actually prints their diplomas on the finest cuts of liver from suckling lambs(and that they’re FABULOUS with a nice port and some shallots), well, I can’t imagine what those nutcases would do, but I bet it wouldn’t be pretty. I joined this country club to get away from nutcases like them. Oh well, almost time to order a new diploma anyway, this one is getting a bit green around the edges. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/190 "2003-05-15T21:43:35Z")
All right fun’s fun and I’ve been enjoying the hijinks as much as the next fellow, but what the fuck is [this](http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/5858118.htm)?!? > [@](#): > > One federal agency that became involved early on was the Air and Marine Interdiction and Coordination Center, based in Riverside, Calif. – which now falls under the auspices of the Homeland Security Department. Homeland Security is now engaged in domestic spying on the political opposition to the ruling party? Wasn’t that one of the big concerns when that boondoggle of a behemoth department was constructed, that its resources would be misused for domestic political purposes? Weren’t there assurances up and down the halls of Congress that such a thing would never, could never happen? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/191 "2003-05-15T21:54:37Z")
**Would somebody be so kind as to link to a God damn’d copy of a map of the Delay plan for re-districting Texas? A map that superimposes Uncle Tom’s scheme or device over the present congressional districts and the population centers would be most helpful.** ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/192 "2003-05-15T22:02:16Z")
What, like I have a copy at my fingertips? Sorry, SG, but I’d have to google it too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/193 "2003-05-15T22:23:16Z")
**Otto:** _Homeland Security is now engaged in domestic spying on the political opposition to the ruling party?_ So it is alleged. [Apparently](http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=669), > [@](#): > > As it became increasingly clear that DeLay would not get his way – the absence of the Democratic legislators has denied the Texas Republican leaders the quorum needed to approve the redistricting plan before a Thursday deadline – he blew up. The man politicos refer to as “The Hammer” was so angry that he speculated on Tuesday about whether federal law might allow FBI agents to travel to the Oklahoma hotel where 51 Democrats were staying, arrest the lawmakers and return them to Austin before the deadline. U.S. Representative Lloyd Doggett, D-Texas, said it appeared that Republican leaders were trying to make federal law enforcement agencies “Tom DeLay’s personal police force.” > > […] The Air and Marine Interdiction and Coordination Center in Riverside reportedly tracked the aircraft in question – which belongs to former House Speaker Pete Laney, one of the departed Democrats – to Ardmore, Oklahoma. > > When questioned, Republican Tom Craddick admitted that the information about the plane’s location was critical to solving the mystery of where the Democrats had disappeared to. “We called someone and they said they were going to track it,” Craddick said of the plane. “That’s how we found them.” > > As it turned out, Oklahoma authorities laughed off attempts by the Texas Department of Public Safety to extend their authority across the state line. […] But the nagging question of how the Department of Homeland Security got pulled into the investigation lingers. > > […] U.S. House members from Texas have written U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and FBI Director Robert Mueller, demanding details regarding federal involvement in the search and seeking an investigation of DeLay’s efforts to enlist federal help in the search for the Texas legislators. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/194 "2003-05-15T23:37:43Z")
[Current](http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/legislature/0424existingmap.pdf) [Proposed](http://alt.cimedia.com/statesman/legislature/0424proposedmap.pdf) **Dewey** thanks for a great op. **Minty** and the rest of the doper’s participating in the good natured disparaging jocularity. For once, I feel right at home here. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/195 "2003-05-15T23:44:42Z")
[Current Maps](http://www.tlc.state.tx.us/research/redist/redist.htm) and some other info about the 2001 redistricting that was done by the courts. If you open the "Interactive Map (RedViewer–Internet Explorer only) " link it will bring up a viewer to see all kinds of different proposed maps(and that particular link will conveniently load the current district map for you). The proposed new map is filed under PLAN 01180C. On opening the current map you can look in the top left corner and see a “Choose Another Plan” button. If you select plan 01180 out of the list it will bring up the graphical representation of the districts as they would exist if House Bill 3398 passed. The maps exist in an application called “Texas Legislative Council’s Redistricting Application (REDAPPL).” The [bill itself](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cmd?LEG=78&SESS=R&CHAMBER=S&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=00090&VERSION=1&TYPE=B) is total gobbledegook. It references blocks by number in this application they’ve built. I leave it to someone more clever than myself to find a way to overlay this custom application with demographic data. [This](http://www.state.tx.us/category.jsp?language=eng&categoryId=1.7) is a nifty place to start looking up state demographic data. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/196 "2003-05-15T23:49:48Z")
ARGGG! Have you any IDEA how much work it was to dig through all the text of the various bills and comittee reports and figuring out how to work that stupid application they’ve built and researching the history of the 2001 re-districting? Only to find that I’ve been scooped by all of seven minutes? ARRRGGGGHHH!!! Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/197 "2003-05-15T23:57:50Z")
Ok, I’ve re-considered. Looking up stuff in that application, which allows you to display cities(and now that I play around with it, demographic data as well(howinhell did I miss those big buttons on the bottom left?)) is pretty freaking cool. So I may have gotten scooped as far as the basics go, but I think I still brought something useful to the table. 🙂 Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/198 "2003-05-16T00:26:49Z")
WTF? They’re spying on them now? I hope careers are ended after this blunder! ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/199 "2003-05-16T03:00:13Z")
Sorry **Mtgman** , if it helps any I’ve been enjoying your posts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948/200 "2003-05-16T03:42:05Z")
It’s not exactly spying, Tars. The federal agency they contacted is actually tasked with keeping tabs on airplanes, as part of guarding the borders. The dirty part of it is that the DPS trooper who phoned in the request basically filed a false report: > [@](#): > > According to a partial transcript the customs bureau released late Thursday, the DPS officer told the bureau’s tracking center, “We got a problem, and I hope you can help me out. We had a plane that was supposed to be going from Ardmore, Oklahoma, to Georgetown, Texas. It had state representatives in it, and we cannot find this plane.” [Cite](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/tsw/stories/051603dntexdps.20a32706.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-democrats-youve-gotta-be-fucking-kiddin-me/174948.md?page=11)