# Texas Grand Jury indicts Cheney, Gonzalez **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387 "2008-11-19T00:18:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/21 "2008-11-19T19:29:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m [Dennis Kucinich](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/10/AR2008061003087.html), and I approved this post. Oh NO’s! How will we keep up the frothing here? How can we possibly keep up with the Freepers? [Who are already implying that it’s Obama’s fault](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2134313/posts) > [@](#): > > Time to use the pardon pen. I don’t like somethings the Bush has done but Cheney is a great American and of COURSE this happens after The One gets in. Everyone stop being so reasonable! Otherwise, how can we possibly confirm the premise that we’re as Lefty-crazy as we’re being painted by certain posters? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/22 "2008-11-19T21:51:54Z")
It’s Clinton’s fault. Bill Clinton, that is. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/23 "2008-11-20T01:17:10Z")
This is dangerous. I’m no fan of Cheney or Gonzales, but we can’t allow any little piss ant county return an indictment against our leaders and expect them to respond. What’s next? Bumfuck coal county, West Virginia, grand jury indicts Obama and Biden for treason against the state of West Virginia for race mongrelization? Then issues arrest warrants? No, these things have to be stopped. A federal court needs to quash these indictments. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/24 "2008-11-20T13:04:29Z")
Well, the indictments have hit a [bit of a snag](http://www.newschannel5.tv/2008/11/19/1001499/Willacy-County-Indictments-Latest). I thought that when the president and vice-president assumed office that their assets were placed in a blind trust. If that were the case, then why would the vice-president have the motivation to do what this indictment accuses him of? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/25 "2008-11-20T13:17:36Z")
Another thought: Since Cheney is now under indictment for a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, he is ineligible to own firearms (at least while the indictment is pending) So, by having his hunting rifles, he is REALLY committing a federal felony by being an ineligible person in possession of a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/26 "2008-11-20T13:27:44Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > This is dangerous. I’m no fan of Cheney or Gonzales, but we can’t allow any little piss ant county return an indictment against our leaders and expect them to respond. > > What’s next? Bumfuck coal county, West Virginia, grand jury indicts Obama and Biden for treason against the state of West Virginia for race mongrelization? Then issues arrest warrants? > > No, these things have to be stopped. A federal court needs to quash these indictments. I agree to a large extent, but it occurs to me that there’s a larger problem here, which is that the entire grand jury system is open to abuse by rogue prosecutors, for example by Mike Nifong. So in a way, I regret that Cheney will be able to use his power, position, and wealth to take care of this problem without any real hassle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/27 "2008-11-20T15:05:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Another thought: Since Cheney is now under indictment for a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, he is ineligible to own firearms (at least while the indictment is pending) That’s not a correct statement of the law. > [@](#): > > So, by having his hunting rifles, he is REALLY committing a federal felony by being an ineligible person in possession of a firearm. Maybe, but doubtful. People under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition. 18 USC § 922(n). There’s no prohibition against either ownership or possession. He’s only committing a federal felony if he’s transporting his firearms across state lines. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/28 "2008-11-20T15:18:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > People under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition. 18 USC § 922(n). There’s no prohibition against either ownership or possession. He’s only committing a federal felony if he’s transporting his firearms across state lines. Sheesh. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?!? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/29 "2008-11-20T15:38:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sheesh. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?!? A principle that has always had limits. Depending on what you’re charged with, a judge can sometimes deny you bail and remand you to jail to await trial. If convicted, you get credit for time served. If acquitted, you get to go home. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/30 "2008-11-20T15:38:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > This is dangerous. I’m no fan of Cheney or Gonzales, but we can’t allow any little piss ant county return an indictment against our leaders and expect them to respond. Yeah! Our leaders are above the law! > [@jtgain](#): > > What’s next? Bumfuck coal county, West Virginia, grand jury indicts Obama and Biden for treason against the state of West Virginia for race mongrelization? Then issues arrest warrants? Apart from the fact that miscegenation is not a crime, wouldn’t be treason even if it were a crime, and neither of them has committed it, sure. > [@jtgain](#): > > No, these things have to be stopped. A federal court needs to quash these indictments. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/31 "2008-11-20T16:13:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Why? Because, as a matter of law, the facts relied upon by the grand jury fail to establish probable cause. At least as to the Cheney indictment. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/32 "2008-11-20T16:40:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because, as a matter of law, the facts relied upon by the grand jury fail to establish probable cause. > > At least as to the Cheney indictment. Well, I was thinking more along the lines of “Aren’t there several links in a judicial chain between a state grand jury and a federal court?”, but thanks for your response. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/33 "2008-11-20T16:50:56Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Well, the indictments have hit a [bit of a snag](http://www.newschannel5.tv/2008/11/19/1001499/Willacy-County-Indictments-Latest). Interesting that the DA should disappear shortly after indicting Cheney; I’d check the man-sized safe in Cheney’s office. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/34 "2008-11-20T17:35:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Well, I was thinking more along the lines of “Aren’t there several links in a judicial chain between a state grand jury and a federal court?”, but thanks for your response. Oops. Yes, my bad. Quite right to ask why a _federal_ court should be involved at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/35 "2008-11-20T18:11:59Z")
> [@3waygeek](#): > > Interesting that the DA should disappear shortly after indicting Cheney; I’d check the man-sized safe in Cheney’s office. 😉 I was thinking exactly the same thing – they got to him. 🆒 > [@LouisB](#): > > It’s Clinton’s fault. Bill Clinton, that is. No, it’s clearly Reagan’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/36 "2008-11-20T18:42:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oops. Yes, my bad. Quite right to ask why a _federal_ court should be involved at this stage. Well, obviously now a federal court wouldn’t be involved. I was just saying that something needs to be done so that public officials don’t have to put up with silly actions by a rogue prosecutor. And, yes, you are correct about the firearm thing for Cheney. Only if he was convicted would he be a prohibited person. However, if an FFL sold him a gun today, the FFL would be committing a federal felony. [QUOTE=Captain Carrot] Apart from the fact that miscegenation is not a crime, wouldn’t be treason even if it were a crime, and neither of them has committed it, sure. [/QUOTE] I’m not saying that the county would win the case, but bringing the indictments would have the same effect as it does in this case. Obama and Biden would have to (at minimum) hire lawyers to represent them in court and find the first judge with enough sanity to throw out the indictment. But what happens to the rogue D.A.? Does he get fined or go to jail for pulling these stunts? No. He could reindict Teddy Kennedy tomorrow for another made up thing. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/37 "2008-11-20T22:42:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Rogue DA might be a better way to phrase it. This is not going to go anywhere, nor should it. This sounds like semi-normal South Texas craziness to me. Willacy County is indeed down in the lunatic fringe. It’s part of the area controlled by the remnants of the Democratic machine created by Archer Parr. Look how far they had to reach to come up with the indictment. Cheney owns shares in a mutual fund. That fund owns shares in Vanguard. Therefore, Cheney owns Vanguard and is personally responsible for its actions. Lame. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/38 "2008-11-20T23:30:28Z")
From what little I’ve read, I’m inclined to agree with our conservative board brethern on this one. Cheney’s indictment seems tenuous at best, and Gonzales’ seems to be for official acts as U.S.A.G. that he’s probably immune from state prosecution on. Add to that the fact that this prosecutor will probably be out months before this ever comes to trial and the new one will probably quietly drop it, and it all looks suspiciously like grandstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387/39 "2008-11-20T23:44:46Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > From what little I’ve read, I’m inclined to agree with our conservative board brethern on this one. Cheney’s indictment seems tenuous at best, and Gonzales’ seems to be for official acts as U.S.A.G. that he’s probably immune from state prosecution on. Add to that the fact that this prosecutor will probably be out months before this ever comes to trial and the new one will probably quietly drop it, and it all looks suspiciously like grandstanding. So the DA is just wasting taxpayer money to make a point: “Cheney and Gonzales are big, fat, weasely doodyheads?” We know that already. And am I the only one getting confused by Judge Banales and Attorney Canales? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-grand-jury-indicts-cheney-gonzalez/473387.md?page=1)