# Texas gun group "simulates" Paris attack... result? Really hard to kill gunmen even if armed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906 "2015-01-15T17:24:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/21 "2015-01-15T19:36:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Which is why I vote to take away your right to carry. Most of the hostages were rescued; not so much if someone with a gun tries to play hero. Here are [some](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123633,00.html) [cites](http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/) of [armed](http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/us/no-charges-planned-against-miami-man-who-shot-gunman.html) [civilians](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html) [stopping](http://www.5280.com/magazine/2012/12/jeanne-assam-still-waiting?page=0,2) mass shooters before they killed more. Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/22 "2015-01-15T19:43:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here are [some](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123633,00.html) [cites](http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/) of [armed](http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/us/no-charges-planned-against-miami-man-who-shot-gunman.html) [civilians](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html) [stopping](http://www.5280.com/magazine/2012/12/jeanne-assam-still-waiting?page=0,2) mass shooters before they killed more. > > Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse? The first three were not stopped until they tried to flee. The fourth was stopped by unarmed students. Only the last actually put a stop to a shooting in progress. In none of these cases were there more than one shooter. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/23 "2015-01-15T19:48:32Z")
**Terr** , if you want some actual ammo, try these. [http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/) > **[One in Ten Mass Shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens; Most Occur Where Guns...](http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/one-in-ten-mass-shootings-stopped-by.html)** > > In the best published study of mass shootings, it was found that 99 had occurred between 1980 and 2010. We know that a number of mass shoo... ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/24 "2015-01-15T19:52:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here are [some](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123633,00.html) [cites](http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/) of [armed](http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/us/no-charges-planned-against-miami-man-who-shot-gunman.html) [civilians](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html) [stopping](http://www.5280.com/magazine/2012/12/jeanne-assam-still-waiting?page=0,2) mass shooters before they killed more. > > Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse? This certainly turned out [worse for the guy carrying](http://kfor.com/2014/06/09/couple-in-shootings-put-dont-tread-on-me-flag-swastika-on-officers-body/): > [@](#): > > A shopper, identified as Joseph Wilcox, told his friend he was going to confront the suspects. > > “He was carrying a concealed weapon, and he immediately and heroically moved towards the position of Jerad Miller. Upon completing that action, he did not realize that Amanda Miller was with Jerad Miller,” McMahill told reporters. > > He continued: “As soon as he began to confront Jerad Miller with his firearm, Amanda Miller removed her firearm and shot him one time in the ribs area where he immediately collapsed.” > > Wilcox, 31, “died attempting to protect others,” Gillespie said. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/25 "2015-01-15T19:57:00Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The fourth was stopped by unarmed students. “who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.” Anyway - any cites about armed civilians making it worse? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/26 "2015-01-15T19:58:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This certainly turned out [worse for the guy carrying](http://kfor.com/2014/06/09/couple-in-shootings-put-dont-tread-on-me-flag-swastika-on-officers-body/): That’s not what you were talking about and not the cite I asked. Care to give an example of armed civilians making matters worse? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/27 "2015-01-15T20:01:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.” > > Anyway - any cites about armed civilians making it worse? He didn’t use the pistol, though, and the others were unarmed. Poor example. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/28 "2015-01-15T20:01:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here are [some](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123633,00.html) [cites](http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/25/school.shooting.pm/) of [armed](http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/us/no-charges-planned-against-miami-man-who-shot-gunman.html) [civilians](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html) [stopping](http://www.5280.com/magazine/2012/12/jeanne-assam-still-waiting?page=0,2) mass shooters before they killed more. > > Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse? Unless you propose that civilians are only armed when there’s a mass shooter, your request for cites is too small. You’re probably calling for civilians to be armed at all times in case there’s a shooting. In that case, we can cite any case in which someone concealed-carrying made things worse, ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/29 "2015-01-15T20:03:57Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He didn’t use the pistol, though, and the others were unarmed. Poor example. And you know that he didn’t use it in tackling the guy - how? No, he didn’t shoot the guy - but neither did some of the people in other examples. But the guns certainly helped. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/30 "2015-01-15T20:13:02Z")
This has turned into another gun debate. Luckily we have a place for that. Moved. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/31 "2015-01-15T20:18:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unless you propose that civilians are only armed when there’s a mass shooter, your request for cites is too small. You’re probably calling for civilians to be armed at all times in case there’s a shooting. In that case, we can cite any case in which someone concealed-carrying made things worse, Cool. Let’s take Texas - pretty easy to get a Concealed Carry license here. This is for 2011. [http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf) Assault with deadly weapon (no idea if it is the gun) - 3 out of 2,765 Robbery - 2 out of 2,210 Deadly Conduct Discharge Firearm - 2 out of 244 Manslaughter - 3 out of 112 Murder - 3 out of 466 About 3% of the adults in Texas have concealed weapon license. Yet they commit a tiny fraction of a percent of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/32 "2015-01-15T20:20:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s not what you were talking about and not the cite I asked. Care to give an example of armed civilians making matters worse? Let’s see you [hand-wave this one away](http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl): > [@](#): > > Houston Police confirm it was a customer with a concealed handgun license who accidentally shot and killed a store clerk. The CHL holder was trying to protect Tyrza Smith, 26, from armed robbers, but something went terribly wrong and she was killed. > > It happened on May 17 at the Family Dollar located at 6951 Bellfort in southeast Houston. > > Police say Dwight Richardson, 20, and another man who hasn’t been arrested are accused of bursting into the store, locking the front door and holding a gun to the clerk’s head. > > “They come in, they got guns out and they’re threatening people in there. The CHL holder had every right to defend himself and that clerk,” said Fox 26 legal analyst Chris Tritico. > > The customer tried to leave but noticed the door was locked. > > He pulled out his weapon and got in a gunfight with the robbers. Smith was caught in the crossfire, and ballistics tests show the CHL holder killed her. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/33 "2015-01-15T20:25:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know, horrible situation to be in, right? Much better when it’s you lying on the ground in a pool of blood with the bad guy hovering over you. The horrible situation I’d most worry about is shooting the wrong person. I’ve trained with firearms, but I still wouldn’t want to be carrying one except in certain, limited situations (basically, when I’m on duty in some way with some sort of security responsibility). That’s just me, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/34 "2015-01-15T20:27:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Let’s see you [hand-wave this one away](http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl): The CHL holder took control of the situation by removing the hostage from the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/35 "2015-01-15T20:27:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Let’s see you [hand-wave this one away](http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl): Oh you found one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/36 "2015-01-15T20:32:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh you found one. Oh, that was a cite you specifically asked for…then casually handwaved away, it seems. Now explain why any future request from you for cites should be honored? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/37 "2015-01-15T20:33:04Z")
I tend to think that, just when I’m going around town, I’d rather not have a gun – I’d rather risk not being able to shoot the bad guy than risk shooting the wrong person. I’d probably be just fine with carrying a non-lethal weapon, though, if legal. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/38 "2015-01-15T20:35:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh you found one. Yeah, that was a one-off, could never happen again. [Oh, wait](http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/93853934.html): > [@](#): > > Jackson died after a bullet went through the wall of her northwest side home and struck her in the chest. The shot was fired by a 65-year-old who told them he was aiming for a man who robbed him and stole his vehicle, police said. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/39 "2015-01-15T20:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Terr** : > > Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse? [Here’s a recent one](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/30/woman-shot-with-own-gun/21062089/). A situation which would have been zero shooters killing innocent victims turned into one shooter killing an innocent victim, as a result of a civilian going armed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/40 "2015-01-15T20:41:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Oh, that was a cite you specifically asked for…then casually handwaved away, it seems. Wait, acknowledging that you found one is “handwaving”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=3)