# Texas gun group "simulates" Paris attack... result? Really hard to kill gunmen even if armed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906 "2015-01-15T17:24:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/41 "2015-01-15T20:42:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Here’s a recent one](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/30/woman-shot-with-own-gun/21062089/). A situation which would have been zero shooters killing innocent victims turned into one shooter killing an innocent victim, as a result of a civilian going armed. That was an “armed civilian response”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/42 "2015-01-15T20:51:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That was an “armed civilian response”? Unless that toddler was military, yup. Which is my point: you don’t get to limit scenarios to ones in which the civilian was attempting to kill a shooter, unless you want guns to magically appear in civilians’ hands in the presence of a shooter. In order for civilians to be armed when there’s a shooter, they also have to be armed when there’s not a shooter, and the benefit of having guns around when there’s a shooter has to be weighed against all the injuries and fatalities caused by armed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/43 "2015-01-15T21:03:09Z")
Of course, this one doesn’t count, because [no one was injured](http://www.katu.com/communities/gresham/man-opens-fire-on-theft-suspects-police-arrest-him-354616-195407011.html): > [@](#): > > GRESHAM, Ore. – Roger Witter says he was just trying to do the right thing when he pulled out his gun and fired two rounds in the direction of two shoplifting suspects reportedly fleeing an AT&T store with a bunch of stolen iPhones. > > Gresham police didn’t see it that way. > > While the suspects are still on the run, Witter, 48, from Gresham, found himself having discussions overnight Tuesday with police, who say his attempt to intervene put the public in danger. > > Witter’s handgun and his concealed carry permit were both retained by officers after they say Witter’s shots went in the direction of a MAX light rail platform and a Park and Ride parking lot. I will let you know I have 11 pages of google results to sort through, and I’m only on page 2. But I’m sure there aren’t any more. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/44 "2015-01-15T21:27:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Of course, this one doesn’t count, because [no one was injured](http://www.katu.com/communities/gresham/man-opens-fire-on-theft-suspects-police-arrest-him-354616-195407011.html): > > I will let you know I have 11 pages of google results to sort through, and I’m only on page 2. But I’m sure there aren’t any more. Moving goalposts galore. Originally gave you mass shooter situations where armed civilians intervened. You are going for just regular criminal acts? I can easily give you dozens of situations where armed civilians confronted criminals and prevented crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/45 "2015-01-15T21:35:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unless that toddler was military, yup. > > Which is my point: you don’t get to limit scenarios to ones in which the civilian was attempting to kill a shooter, unless you want guns to magically appear in civilians’ hands in the presence of a shooter. In order for civilians to be armed when there’s a shooter, they also have to be armed when there’s not a shooter, and the benefit of having guns around when there’s a shooter has to be weighed against all the injuries and fatalities caused by armed civilians. Actually, he does get to decide which specific scenario he wants to discuss. You can attempt to shift the boundaries, like you did with the quoted post above, but nobody is obligated to play by your rules. This thread was about one specific scenario and it’d be tits if it stayed on that scenario. Do you really have any new thoughts to bring to the 11 billionth general guns thread? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/46 "2015-01-15T21:43:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Moving goalposts galore. Originally gave you mass shooter situations where armed civilians intervened. You are going for just regular criminal acts? I can easily give you dozens of situations where armed civilians confronted criminals and prevented crimes. Fair enough. [Stand-Your-Ground Defendant Shot at Moving Car, Kills Innocent Teenager Across the Street](http://www.heraldonline.com/2013/10/09/5291031/stand-your-ground-sc-judge-grants.html) > [@](#): > > The case involved the 2010 shooting of Darrell Niles, 17, a Keenan High School student and basketball player, who was across the street in a car when Shannon Scott, then 33, fired his handgun. Shortly before, an SUV filled with youths who had been threatening his 15-year-old daughter drove by his house and they fired shots, according to testimony in the case. > > Smith then saw Niles’ 1992 Honda, and, believing its occupants posed a danger, fired his gun from his front yard across the street, hitting Niles in the head with a .380 bullet, killing him instantly. No evidence indicated Niles was a threat to Scott or his daughter. Do you believe these cases are rare? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/47 "2015-01-15T21:52:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you believe these cases are rare? I believe there are a lot (and I mean many times) more cases where armed civilians prevented crime and stopped/killed criminals. Want some? And by the way, the case you gave me is not one where an armed civilian intervenes during a crime, is it? You’re really reaching. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/48 "2015-01-15T21:53:40Z")
Anecdote but the two times I would have needed a gun to defend myself, it wouldn’t have helped or been useful. Once I was attacked from behind in public with others around that simply took off, I remember my vision going black on one side and waking up on the ground being kicked and then the assailants took off. I wouldn’t have even had time to draw if I had a gun. I can only guess they thought I’d drop the grocery bags I was carrying and they could grab them, but instead my hands locked up. Funny thing was it was a supposedly safe and wealthy area. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/49 "2015-01-15T21:57:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I believe there are a lot (and I mean many times) more cases where armed civilians prevented crime and stopped/killed criminals. Want some? And by the way, the case you gave me is not one where an armed civilian intervenes during a crime, is it? You’re really reaching. When did I agree to that restriction? Any time someone fires a gun in public, they endanger bystanders. Leave your guns at home. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/50 "2015-01-15T22:02:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Actually, he does get to decide which specific scenario he wants to discuss. You can attempt to shift the boundaries, like you did with the quoted post above, but nobody is obligated to play by your rules. This thread was about one specific scenario and it’d be tits if it stayed on that scenario. Do you really have any new thoughts to bring to the 11 billionth general guns thread? He isn’t moving the goalposts. We are talking about people having guns in case there are armed shooters. Since we don’t know when there will be armed shooters you’d have to carry in all sorts of situations. Any situations in which the gun is carried in an effort to preempting a shooting is relevant. There are no “in case of shooters break glass” guns. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/51 "2015-01-15T22:13:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > When did I agree to that restriction? Right here: “Which is why I vote to take away your right to carry. Most of the hostages were rescued; **not so much if someone with a gun tries to play hero**.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/52 "2015-01-15T22:27:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right here: > > “Which is why I vote to take away your right to carry. Most of the hostages were rescued; **not so much if someone with a gun tries to play hero**.” Bullshit. All that means is when concealed carry citizens intervene in any armed crime, they put bystanders at risk. It certainly doesn’t limit my examples to kosher delis in France. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/53 "2015-01-15T22:31:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bullshit. All that means is when concealed carry citizens intervene in any armed crime, they put bystanders at risk. It certainly doesn’t limit my examples to kosher delis in France. Where else are you going to get a hero sandwich? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/54 "2015-01-15T22:36:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where else are you going to get a hero sandwich? _\_ ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/55 "2015-01-15T22:57:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bullshit. All that means is when concealed carry citizens intervene in any armed crime, they put bystanders at risk. It certainly doesn’t limit my examples to kosher delis in France. No. But it limits it to cases where armed civilians intervene in armed crime. And the case you cited wasn’t relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/56 "2015-01-15T23:06:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. But it limits it to cases where armed civilians intervene in armed crime. And the case you cited wasn’t relevant. So name some that are. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/57 "2015-01-15T23:14:11Z")
I’ve seen one of those types of video, and it was a POS. They showed some asshole taking about 30 minutes (hyperbole) to get his gun, and, of course, the result was that people shouldn’t have guns. Um-hmm. Surprise, surprise. I think that they best real scenario would be the one in a local town, where one of the locals shot somebody who was wreaking terror on the offices. One victim, and one asshole dead. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/58 "2015-01-15T23:16:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bullshit. All that means is when concealed carry citizens intervene in any armed crime, they put bystanders at risk. It certainly doesn’t limit my examples to kosher delis in France. Sorry, the concealed citizens ARE the bystanders. They are also the victims. Apparently, they are less prone to kill the innocent ones than a cop. Wasn’t there some deal about 5 years ago when the SWAT team killed 6-12 people, and they were all non-assailants? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/59 "2015-01-15T23:42:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. But it limits it to cases where armed civilians intervene in armed crime. And the case you cited wasn’t relevant. The citizens were armed; the criminals were armed; the victims were not; how does it not apply??? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/60 "2015-01-15T23:45:30Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Actually, he does get to decide which specific scenario he wants to discuss. You can attempt to shift the boundaries, like you did with the quoted post above, but nobody is obligated to play by your rules. This thread was about one specific scenario and it’d be tits if it stayed on that scenario. Do you really have any new thoughts to bring to the 11 billionth general guns thread? How is this post supposed to be interesting or the least bit non-obvious? Of course he’s not obligated to play by my rules. Of course he gets to decide what he wants to talk about. Of course I can attempt to shift the boundaries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=4)