# Texas gun group "simulates" Paris attack... result? Really hard to kill gunmen even if armed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906 "2015-01-15T17:24:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/81 "2015-01-17T13:10:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my immediate office area, four of eight of us have concealed handgun permits. Is that representative of a typical American company? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/82 "2015-01-17T19:22:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my immediate office area, four of eight of us have concealed handgun permits. And how many actually carry on a daily basis ? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/83 "2015-01-17T20:11:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is that representative of a typical American company? I have no idea. > [@Kobal2](#): > > And how many actually carry on a daily basis ? None. We work in Maryland. The four Virginians are the ones with carry permits; those permits are (for now) useless in Maryland. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/84 "2015-01-17T20:32:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > None. We work in Maryland. The four Virginians are the ones with carry permits; those permits are (for now) useless in Maryland. Which you (hopefully) agree answers **Magiver** ’s seminal inquiry re:the number of designated armed “journalists” ? I mean, they could have run a scenario where two gunmen assault a fortified position festooned with barbed wire, MG nests and anti-personnel mines but… yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/85 "2015-01-18T06:35:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Many? How many employees at a typical American company have CCWs? What percentage of the population at large has a CCW? Now that you know the answer to your question the next question is how many people in a company can get their CCW if there is an obvious threat to their safety. The answer is ALL OF THEM. they could have installed a secured Lexan shield (like that found in banks and gas stations) and also an interior safe room to protect their employees. The French did nothing to protect these people. The only person to come to their rescue came armed with a stick. They stepped over his body on the way to a one-sided gun fight. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/86 "2015-01-18T07:51:37Z")
Yeah, if only we’d had the balls to drown our country in handguns and send our murder rate through the roof, just in case (guns which, BTW, the Charlie team wouldn’t have owned anyway). An armed society is a polite society ! Guns could have prevented this ! Like they prevented Sandy Hook and Aurora and Fort Hood and waaaiiiit a minute. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/87 "2015-01-18T14:18:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, if only we’d had the balls to drown our country in handguns and send our murder rate through the roof, just in case (guns which, BTW, the Charlie team wouldn’t have owned anyway). An armed society is a polite society ! Guns could have prevented this ! Like they prevented Sandy Hook and Aurora and Fort Hood and waaaiiiit a minute. Amusingly, you pick three examples that are not remotely useful to,proving your point. As a Connecticut elementary school, Sandy Hook was a “gun free school zone,” a regulation respected by teachers and school staff but not by Adam Lanza. Aurora, Colorado permits business property owners to exclude armed patrons, and the movie theater did just that – an admonition respected by all except the James Eagen Holmes. Fort Hood similarly does not permit armed soldiers, except for M.P.s, a regulation observed by soldiers carefully, except for one Major Nidal Malik Hasan. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/88 "2015-01-18T15:24:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, if only we’d had the balls to drown our country in handguns and send our murder rate through the roof, just in case (guns which, BTW, the Charlie team wouldn’t have owned anyway). An armed society is a polite society ! Guns could have prevented this ! Like they prevented Sandy Hook and Aurora and Fort Hood and waaaiiiit a minute. Why would it send the murder rate through the roof? In every case you listed the person committing the murder could have killed more people by running them over with a car and then flee the scene in the same vehicle. And as Bricker pointed out, the events you listed were done in gun free zones which made targets out of those killed. At best, in a society with armed police, a citizen is 15 minutes away from help if attacked and that’s a generous number. We have every right to protect ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/89 "2015-01-18T15:36:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Amusingly, you pick three examples that are not remotely useful to,proving your point. And yet the point still stands. Rounding right the hell up, France has 700 homicides on a bad year. That’s 700 metric, which is about two to two point five Baltimores imperial. If we boasted the US murder rate, it’d be 4.200. Now I’ve always sucked at math, but I’m like 60% sure the difference between these two numbers is higher than 12. So, with all due respect to **Magiver** ’s acumen and tact, a funny story about motes and beams comes to mind. Not that his point stand anyway. Handguns are strictly controlled in France, but permits are available, including concealed carry provided one can justify a need for it to the cops, and “My office has been firebombed and I’ve received death threats” more than fits the bill. Charlie Hebdo’s cartoonists just didn’t care for that “solution”. Oh and the overwhelming majority of our cops are armed, BTW. We even have actual, FAMAS toting military personnel patrolling the city. This particular cop wasn’t - do meter maids typically carry in the US ? Honest question, I have no idea. Regardless, I don’t believe it would have made much difference had he been, considering the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/90 "2015-01-18T15:43:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At best, in a society with armed police, a citizen is 15 minutes away from help if attacked and that’s a generous number. Oh well that changes everything, considering the attack was over in less than 5 (which was still long enough for a police vehicle to get to the scene and exchange gunshots with the shooters as they were making their getaway). Paradropping commandos on mini-bikes would have done the trick, though ! > [@](#): > > We have every right to protect ourselves. I don’t dispute that. So do we. Our way seems to work better, on the whole. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/91 "2015-01-18T16:22:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh well that changes everything, considering the attack was over in less than 5 (which was still long enough for a police vehicle to get to the scene and exchange gunshots with the shooters as they were making their getaway). there were 2 officers at the scene. They’re both dead. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Paradropping commandos on mini-bikes would have done the trick, though ! [They did send in paratroopers in the next day](http://bangordailynews.com/2015/01/08/news/world-news/french-police-paratroopers-sweep-countryside-for-paris-terror-attack-suspects/). Of course that was after the coroner hauled off the dead bodies the day before. We call that “a day late and a dollar short”. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t dispute that. So do we. Our way seems to work better, on the whole. Yes, you are disputing it. Your way guaranteed the deaths of all those people including the officer responding to the scene. There was never anybody coming to their rescue. In my state we have the ability to train and license people to carry guns and defend themselves. Given the same scenario of death threats it would have been very easy to provide those workers with the means to do so. The only real means of defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/92 "2015-01-18T16:54:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Rounding right the hell up, France has 700 homicides on a bad year. That’s 700 metric, which is about two to two point five Baltimores imperial. If we boasted the US murder rate, it’d be 4.200. According to the most recent statistics I could find, over 700 people in the US were beaten to death with hands and feet, and over twice that number killed with cutting instruments, several hundred by blunt instruments and another 800 or so by “other weapons or weapons not stated”. While some unknowable number of murders wouldn’t have happened if guns were heavily restricted in the US, the numbers suggest the US has a violence problem, not a gun problem per se. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/93 "2015-01-18T18:42:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > there were 2 officers at the scene. They’re both dead. Parking ticket cops always come in pairs. One knows how to read, the other how to write. Your point being ? > [@](#): > > Yes, you are disputing it. Your way guaranteed the deaths of all those people including the officer responding to the scene. There was never anybody coming to their rescue. Also vastly improves the not-death chances of the husband caught cheating, the guy confronting the angry drunk at the bar, the carjackee, the pizza delivery guy mistakenly bringing a double pepperoni to the home of the paranoid geezer with undiagnosed dementia, the riot cop overseeing the less-than-peaceful protest, the thrill-seeking kid breaking into Daddy’s mystery box, the depressed teenager… And I already told you. Cops did come “to the rescue”. And the journalists could have availed themselves of guns had they wished to. They didn’t. Of course, as you’ve amply demonstrated in the past that you were about as reasonable and susceptible to facts as a singularly ornery mule with its testicles stuck in a briar patch, I don’t expect you to change your mind one iota. [QUOTE=Lumpy] According to the most recent statistics I could find, over 700 people in the US were beaten to death with hands and feet, and over twice that number killed with cutting instruments, several hundred by blunt instruments and another 800 or so by “other weapons or weapons not stated”. [/QUOTE] That’s… carry the seven… 3.500 or so, out of the ~17.000/annum ? 1 in 4.8ish ? Interesting coincidence. That’s also the factor of difference between the US and the French (and British, and German…) murder rates. But I’m just being petty, I know, and that wasn’t really my point or goal. Nor have I any interest whatsoever in participating in yet another pointless debate slash talking point parrot-a-thon about guns in America. Mostly because Iiiii really don’t give a shit. Not the one. Your country, your problem. If \*\*Magiver \*\*could keep the grand, ignorant and insensitive proclamations about \*my \*country to a minimum however, that’d be just swell. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/94 "2015-01-18T19:48:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Probably the single biggest effect this board has had on me is diluting my anti-gun beliefs away almost to nothing: y’all have been pretty convincing in this measure. Funny, the gun rights advocates on this board have had the opposite effect on me - and I grew up hunting and served in the military. Outside of those uses, I just don’t see a benefit to them in a modern society. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/95 "2015-01-18T20:21:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Parking ticket cops always come in pairs. One knows how to read, the other how to write. > > Your point being ? Police cannot protect people from attacks by terrorists and your belief that people have the right to defend themselves is all talk. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Also vastly improves the not-death chances of the husband caught cheating, the guy confronting the angry drunk at the bar, the carjackee, the pizza delivery guy mistakenly bringing a double pepperoni to the home of the paranoid geezer with undiagnosed dementia, the riot cop overseeing the less-than-peaceful protest, the thrill-seeking kid breaking into Daddy’s mystery box, the depressed teenager… :rolleyes: If someone intends to kill another then the absence of a gun does not change that. > [@Kobal2](#): > > If \*\*Magiver \*\*could keep the grand, ignorant and insensitive proclamations about \*my \*country to a minimum however, that’d be just swell. Well we’ll just ignore your rants against the US then shall we? The thread is about a simulated attack of 2 people with guns against one which has an obvious conclusion just as it does if 2 attackers face a multitude of guns. If you feel it’s insensitive to point out that the cartoonists didn’t stand a chance and the police are useless in such a situation then I don’t know what to tell you. Move to an imaginary country where people don’t go apeshit over cartoons and nothing can be used as a weapon to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/96 "2015-01-18T20:45:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Police cannot protect people from attacks by terrorists Mostly true. And yet besides the point. Here’s the point, spelled out for you : changing the whole framework of society and making it orders of magnitude more dangerous in order to “protect people from attacks by terrorists” is retarded. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: If someone intends to kill another then the absence of a gun does not change that. Which has nothing to do with what I said. You really need to work on which mindless bulletpoint matches which argument, you can’t just pick one at random and hope it’s gonna work. F-, see me after class. > [@](#): > > Well we’ll just ignore your rants against the US then shall we? Where have I ranted against the US ? > [@](#): > > Move to an imaginary country where people don’t go apeshit over cartoons and nothing can be used as a weapon to kill people. I don’t need to. I feel perfectly safe, carrying nothing more threatening than a small Bic lighter. Do you ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/97 "2015-01-18T20:56:55Z")
(not that it needs changing, because, \*again \*again : they could. have had. guns. if. they’d. wished to.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/98 "2015-01-18T21:01:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t need to. I feel perfectly safe, carrying nothing more threatening than a small Bic lighter. Do you ? Bic lighters are great for lighting candles. Best of luck to you. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/99 "2015-01-19T02:32:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Scumpup, due respect, but I wasn’t talking to you. Terr implied that armed civilians always (or usually) made the situation better, and asked for situations where “armed civilian response made matters worse.” My point is simply that if we’re trying to make a fair evaluation, it’s inaccurate to limit discussion to situations in which there was a shooter and an armed civilian made the situation worse; you’d need to discuss situations in which a civilian armed **due to worries about shooters** made the situation worse. > > A fair response might be that you’d also need to evaluate situations in which fear of armed civilians made shooters rethink plans; I’d agree in that case that that would be fair. But scolding me because you’re familiar with my objection, while not scolding Terr for raising a spurious point, is suspect and tiresome. > > No. Do you? I’m pretty on board with what you’re saying here. Let’s face it, the “armed civilian stops terrorist attack” is going to be exceedingly rare. But when you look at the number of times you get guys like Zimmerman trying to play the hero there’s a very definite loss - not to mention that lots of people that carry are NOT going to be careful or rational, that carrying is going to make you a target in some instances, that a improperly handled gun is a danger to all around you - not to mention how many kids find a loaded gun with disastrous results - all of which you can’t eliminate due to human nature. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906/100 "2015-01-19T08:14:11Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Anecdote but the two times I would have needed a gun to defend myself, it wouldn’t have helped or been useful. > > Once I was attacked from behind in public with others around that simply took off, I remember my vision going black on one side and waking up on the ground being kicked and then the assailants took off. I wouldn’t have even had time to draw if I had a gun. I can only guess they thought I’d drop the grocery bags I was carrying and they could grab them, but instead my hands locked up. Funny thing was it was a supposedly safe and wealthy area. Ya don’t stay wealthy very long if you go around buying your own groceries all the time, you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-gun-group-simulates-paris-attack-result-really-hard-to-kill-gunmen-even-if-armed/709906.md?page=6)