Texas gun group "simulates" Paris attack... result? Really hard to kill gunmen even if armed.

[Terr]

@Fear_Itself

Which is why I vote to take away your right to carry. Most of the hostages were rescued; not so much if someone with a gun tries to play hero.

Here are some cites of armed civilians stopping mass shooters before they killed more.

Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse?

[running_coach]

@Terr

Here are some cites of armed civilians stopping mass shooters before they killed more.

Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse?

The first three were not stopped until they tried to flee.
The fourth was stopped by unarmed students.
Only the last actually put a stop to a shooting in progress.

In none of these cases were there more than one shooter.

[running_coach]

Terr, if you want some actual ammo, try these.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

One in Ten Mass Shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens; Most Occur Where Guns...

[Fear_Itself]

@Terr

Here are some cites of armed civilians stopping mass shooters before they killed more.

Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse?

This certainly turned out worse for the guy carrying:

A shopper, identified as Joseph Wilcox, told his friend he was going to confront the suspects.

“He was carrying a concealed weapon, and he immediately and heroically moved towards the position of Jerad Miller. Upon completing that action, he did not realize that Amanda Miller was with Jerad Miller,” McMahill told reporters.

He continued: “As soon as he began to confront Jerad Miller with his firearm, Amanda Miller removed her firearm and shot him one time in the ribs area where he immediately collapsed.”

Wilcox, 31, “died attempting to protect others,” Gillespie said.

[Terr]

@running_coach

The fourth was stopped by unarmed students.

“who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.”

Anyway - any cites about armed civilians making it worse?

[Terr]

@Fear_Itself

This certainly turned out worse for the guy carrying:

That’s not what you were talking about and not the cite I asked. Care to give an example of armed civilians making matters worse?

[running_coach]

@Terr

“who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.”

Anyway - any cites about armed civilians making it worse?

He didn’t use the pistol, though, and the others were unarmed. Poor example.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Terr

Here are some cites of armed civilians stopping mass shooters before they killed more.

Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse?

Unless you propose that civilians are only armed when there’s a mass shooter, your request for cites is too small. You’re probably calling for civilians to be armed at all times in case there’s a shooting. In that case, we can cite any case in which someone concealed-carrying made things worse,

[Terr]

@running_coach

He didn’t use the pistol, though, and the others were unarmed. Poor example.

And you know that he didn’t use it in tackling the guy - how? No, he didn’t shoot the guy - but neither did some of the people in other examples. But the guns certainly helped.

[Loach]

This has turned into another gun debate. Luckily we have a place for that.

Moved.

[Terr]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Unless you propose that civilians are only armed when there’s a mass shooter, your request for cites is too small. You’re probably calling for civilians to be armed at all times in case there’s a shooting. In that case, we can cite any case in which someone concealed-carrying made things worse,

Cool. Let’s take Texas - pretty easy to get a Concealed Carry license here. This is for 2011.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf

Assault with deadly weapon (no idea if it is the gun) - 3 out of 2,765
Robbery - 2 out of 2,210
Deadly Conduct Discharge Firearm - 2 out of 244
Manslaughter - 3 out of 112
Murder - 3 out of 466

About 3% of the adults in Texas have concealed weapon license. Yet they commit a tiny fraction of a percent of crimes.

[Fear_Itself]

@Terr

That’s not what you were talking about and not the cite I asked. Care to give an example of armed civilians making matters worse?

Let’s see you hand-wave this one away:

Houston Police confirm it was a customer with a concealed handgun license who accidentally shot and killed a store clerk. The CHL holder was trying to protect Tyrza Smith, 26, from armed robbers, but something went terribly wrong and she was killed.

It happened on May 17 at the Family Dollar located at 6951 Bellfort in southeast Houston.

Police say Dwight Richardson, 20, and another man who hasn’t been arrested are accused of bursting into the store, locking the front door and holding a gun to the clerk’s head.

“They come in, they got guns out and they’re threatening people in there. The CHL holder had every right to defend himself and that clerk,” said Fox 26 legal analyst Chris Tritico.

The customer tried to leave but noticed the door was locked.

He pulled out his weapon and got in a gunfight with the robbers. Smith was caught in the crossfire, and ballistics tests show the CHL holder killed her.

[iiandyiiii]

@Terr

I know, horrible situation to be in, right? Much better when it’s you lying on the ground in a pool of blood with the bad guy hovering over you.

The horrible situation I’d most worry about is shooting the wrong person. I’ve trained with firearms, but I still wouldn’t want to be carrying one except in certain, limited situations (basically, when I’m on duty in some way with some sort of security responsibility). That’s just me, though.

[Czarcasm]

@Fear_Itself

Let’s see you hand-wave this one away:

The CHL holder took control of the situation by removing the hostage from the equation.

[Terr]

@Fear_Itself

Let’s see you hand-wave this one away:

Oh you found one.

[Czarcasm]

@Terr

Oh you found one.

Oh, that was a cite you specifically asked for…then casually handwaved away, it seems. Now explain why any future request from you for cites should be honored?

[iiandyiiii]

I tend to think that, just when I’m going around town, I’d rather not have a gun – I’d rather risk not being able to shoot the bad guy than risk shooting the wrong person.

I’d probably be just fine with carrying a non-lethal weapon, though, if legal.

[Fear_Itself]

@Terr

Oh you found one.

Yeah, that was a one-off, could never happen again.

Oh, wait:

Jackson died after a bullet went through the wall of her northwest side home and struck her in the chest. The shot was fired by a 65-year-old who told them he was aiming for a man who robbed him and stole his vehicle, police said.

[Chronos]

Quoth Terr:

Can you give me a few where armed civilian response made matters worse?

Here’s a recent one. A situation which would have been zero shooters killing innocent victims turned into one shooter killing an innocent victim, as a result of a civilian going armed.

[Terr]

@Czarcasm

Oh, that was a cite you specifically asked for…then casually handwaved away, it seems.

Wait, acknowledging that you found one is “handwaving”?