# Texas, Ohio, Rhode Island and Vermont - March 4th, 2008 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410 "2008-02-20T20:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/341 "2008-03-05T23:31:58Z")
[Obama wins Delegate Count in Texas](http://thepage.time.com/obama-release-on-texas-delegate-count/) Thank you very much! This is not over by a long, long long shot. Obama will fight to the bitter end to win the nomination. Like Hillary yesterday - It’s Obama’s turn now! ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/342 "2008-03-05T23:42:45Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] [Obama wins Delegate Count in Texas](http://thepage.time.com/obama-release-on-texas-delegate-count/) Thank you very much! This is not over by a long, long long shot. Obama will fight to the bitter end to win the nomination. Like Hillary yesterday - It’s Obama’s turn now! [/QUOTE] Looks more like a prediction than news. I’ll meet you back here when you have something substantial. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/343 "2008-03-05T23:45:35Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] [Obama wins Delegate Count in Texas](http://thepage.time.com/obama-release-on-texas-delegate-count/) [/QUOTE] That is an estimate from the Obama camp. NBC estimates that Clinton will beat Obama by 3. Let’s all just wait for the actual data. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/344 "2008-03-06T00:22:23Z")
After all is said and done, Hillary is going to net a total of about 5 delegates out of yesterday. With Obama reportedly about to get 50 more supers plus Wyoming and Mississippi, Hillary will be worse off in a week than she was on monday and PA isn’t going to save her. Unfortunately, I think Hillary is going to be able to strong arm the party into do-over votes in FLA and MI, offer Obama the Veep spot as part of the deal, then go out and lose to McCain, who will promptly die of old age and leave us in the care of whatever hideous, far right monstrosity of a running mate he will have to choose to pander to his knuckle-walking base. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/345 "2008-03-06T01:21:19Z")
Which ignores that she’ll have a clear month and half with Momentum and Winning on her side of the imagemaking, going into a big state where’s just just as strong as in New York or Ohio. Or, for that matter, Michigan or Florida, if the Obama forces succeed in “getting the rules changed” :rolleyes: That’s leverage, with anybody she needs to use it on. That’s also plenty of time for passions to settle down enough for backroom deals to be made. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/346 "2008-03-06T01:26:17Z")
She’s going to lose WY amd MS and NC. She isn’t going to have any momentum going into PA and momentum can’t erase the math anyway. Her only hope is to change the rules regarding FL and MI. Essentially, she can’t win without cheating. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/347 "2008-03-06T01:27:59Z")
Explain this “cheating” charge, willya? We haven’t seen an adult explanation here yet. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/348 "2008-03-06T01:30:18Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Explain this “cheating” charge, willya? We haven’t seen an adult explanation here yet. [/QUOTE] You’re right; you can’t cheat when playing Calvinball. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/349 "2008-03-06T01:31:46Z")
Still waiting … ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/350 "2008-03-06T01:34:53Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Still waiting … [/QUOTE] Call it Calvinball. Call it whatever you want. The point is that she can’t win by the rules she agreed to before this all started. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/351 "2008-03-06T01:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Call it whatever you want. [/QUOTE] What I want to call it is what it is. Why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/352 "2008-03-06T01:39:09Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Call it Calvinball. Call it whatever you want. The point is that she can’t win by the rules she agreed to before this all started. [/QUOTE] Well then Obama can’t complain if the superdelegates take Hillary over the top 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/353 "2008-03-06T01:45:13Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Well then Obama can’t complain if the superdelegates take Hillary over the top 😃 [/QUOTE] Depending on how the remaining primaries and caucuses shake out, that may happen. If it’s all done aboveboard – a redo for Florida and Michigan; a tie or near-tie in pledged delegates; a clear difference in perceived electability based on the most recent nationwide polls – and the superdelegates cast their votes in a way that reflects all this, then yes, it’s legitimate and, however bitterly we Obama supporters may rue the choice of Hillary, we should accept it. Mind you, I believe that Hillary rather than Obama as the candidate will lose thundering herds of Independents and dissatisfied Republicans, leading to a narrow McCain win; that Hillary’s negative coattails will produce a net loss of the Democrats in Congress; and that it would be a BAD outcome, still it would be legitimate based upon the rules as laid down at the start of it all. Happy now, **Dutch, Elvis**? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/354 "2008-03-06T01:45:19Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Well then Obama can’t complain if the superdelegates take Hillary over the top 😃 [/QUOTE] That’s a stupid equivalence that I’m really sick of. Obama has never said that the superdelegates are obligated _by the rules_ to vote a certain way. He has argued for the criteria that he thinks is best, since there is no criteria in the rules. The failure to see the difference is either deliberate bias or ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/355 "2008-03-06T01:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Well then Obama can’t complain if the superdelegates take Hillary over the top 😃 [/QUOTE] No one’s saying that wouldn’t be within the rules, but they would lose half their party. The supers aren’t going to be that stupid, though. The nominee will be the one who wins the popular vote. That’s guaranteed. What’s going to decide things will be whether the party revisits FL and MI. Even then, I think it would piss off so many people that it would doom Hillary’s candidacy. I don’t have anything against Hillary but she can’t get this nom in any way that’s going to feel fair to the Obama supporters. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/356 "2008-03-06T01:50:39Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Explain this “cheating” charge, willya? We haven’t seen an adult explanation here yet. [/QUOTE] Agreeing to one set of campaign rules and then attempting to circumvent them when you realize you cannot win any other way is “cheating” to any reasonable person. If you and I were to play Monopoly and agreed to use house rules that landing on Free Parking got you $500, that’s fine; we agree as adults to abide by a special set of rules for that contest. If you later land on Free Parking and I pull out the rules sheet and say “You can’t have $500” and pretend we didn’t agree on the house rule, I am cheating. Clinton agreed to respect the DNC’s decision to disregard the votes in Florida and Michigan. Her opponents agreed as well. If she now tries to circumvent that agreement, she’s cheating - unless she arranges it in a way her opponents agree (such as holding a re-vote.) Now, so far as I know Clinton has not come right out and tried to seat MI/FL delegates, so this is hypothetical at this point, I believe. But it stands as true all the same. If someone were to act like a fucking weasel they’re a fucking weasel, even if you personally support their politics. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/357 "2008-03-06T01:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Explain this “cheating” charge, willya? We haven’t seen an adult explanation here yet. [/QUOTE] Actually, there has. Ignoring arguments isn’t the same as refuting them. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/358 "2008-03-06T01:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] What I want to call it is what it is. [/QUOTE] Solipsistic much? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/359 "2008-03-06T01:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Agreeing to one set of campaign rules and then attempting to circumvent them when you realize you cannot win any other way is “cheating” to any reasonable person. [/quote] You’d rather call it “circumventing” then. Still needs substantiation from the world of fact. > [@](#): > > Clinton agreed to respect the DNC’s decision to disregard the votes in Florida and Michigan. Wrong. She agreed not to campaign there, as did the other candidates, and in fact did not. > [@](#): > > If someone were to act like a fucking weasel they’re a fucking weasel, even if you personally support their politics. If someone can’t be bothered with the basic facts, then what is the proper word for _that_? I know it’s a ton of fun to toss cheap invective around, but this isn’t the best forum for that, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410/360 "2008-03-06T02:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Wrong. She agreed not to campaign there, as did the other candidates, and in fact did not. [/quote] Well there’s a sophist, Clintonian argument if ever there was one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-ohio-rhode-island-and-vermont-march-4th-2008/438410.md?page=19)