# Texas Primary Results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151 "2010-03-03T17:21:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/21 "2010-03-04T03:29:11Z")
In _your opinion_ it is both. There’s a difference between opinion and objective fact. When ancient Greeks and neo-Pagans take over my legislature and insist that their religious book be taught while excluding all others and Rick Perry endorses it, then I’ll speak out against that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/22 "2010-03-04T03:33:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > 1. Which book’s viewpoint most closely approximates a nihilistic philosophy? Ecclesiastes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/23 "2010-03-04T03:46:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > According to the article it is an elective, it is the Bible “as history and literature” (not as religious preaching) Teaching the Bible as history IS religious preaching. In point of fact, the Bible is NOT history and teaching it as such is no more permissable than teaching it as science. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/24 "2010-03-04T03:48:26Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > :dubious: You think those exist in my state legislature? Interesting. > > I’ve seen my sister in law’s lesson plan suggested by the state. It’s about bible literacy. There are no other books being taught in the ‘literature’ class. The bible isn’t literature; it’s a holy book. We also have football teams in East Texas being led in prayer before games. I know this may be difficult to accept, but Texans don’t really give a damn that what they’re doing is illegal when it comes to GOD. They think that as long as they know it’s right everyone else should butt the hell out. Rick Perry is one of those people, and he’s ignorant and corrupt to boot. He needs gone. From the federal law, and yes I know it is talking about Congress, but here it is anyway: > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That “philosophy” filtered down to the state level. If this is taught and required, even at the state level, it means the government is giving one religion their seal of approval over others. Would this class be taught by the Catholics? Or the Lutherans? Or the Southern Baptists? Or the Jews? Or the Seven Day Adventists? Or the Mormons? How about Church of England? No matter which group it is, it would mean the others are being to compelled to learn “brand X”. And after all that, what about the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc who each have their own teachings and holy writings? Why force them into this?Government has no business pushing religion and needs to stay out of it. If government, through the schools, starts teaching a religion, no matter how carefully packaged or disguised, they have effectively established a state religion. It also violates the flip side of the coin, the freedom from religion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/25 "2010-03-04T03:50:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Teaching the Bible as history IS religious preaching. In point of fact, the Bible is NOT history and teaching it as such is no more permissable than teaching it as science. It means also that the Bible is put in Historical perspective. Plus the Kingdom of Israel and Judah did exist with the kings as mentioned in the Bible to give an example. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/26 "2010-03-04T03:56:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It means also that the Bible is put in Historical perspective. Plus the Kingdom of Israel and Judah did exist with the kings as mentioned in the Bible to give an example. Let’s get back to the idea of a “state religion”. What right does government have, to effectively dictate religious indoctrination? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/27 "2010-03-04T04:03:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Let’s get back to the idea of a “state religion”. What right does government have, to effectively dictate religious indoctrination? Except these Bible classes do not argue for the truth of any religion or denomination-for instance would it be promoting Greco-Roman paganism to say that there is some Historical truth to the _Iliad_? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/28 "2010-03-04T04:05:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It means also that the Bible is put in Historical perspective. That’s not the same as teaching the Bible as history, and that wasn’t the stated goal. I guarntee they had no inetntion of applying any historical critical method to what they were teaching. > [@](#): > > Plus the Kingdom of Israel and Judah did exist with the kings as mentioned in the Bible to give an example. Sumeria and Troy existed too. That doesn’t mean that _The Iliad_ and the _Epic of Gilgamesh_ are history. I don’t have a problem with a world religions class in public schools. In fact, I think it would be a good idea. I’d even be willing to teach it. But it has to be done objectively, accurately and free from any stated opinion about what’s true or not true. I disagree with your assertion that the Bible is “the most influential book in history,” by the way. I can name several books, both scientific and literary, that have had more real influence on the world than the Bible. The Bible’s historical significance has been more talismanic than practical. It had zero influence on the development of modern science, physics, mathematics, medicine, the invention of the autombile, the airplane or the personal computer, the founding of the United States, or space exploration, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/29 "2010-03-04T04:05:56Z")
Then why not compare the Bible to other holy books for literary context? Many, especially the Talmud and the Qu’ran, have similar themes. Why _only_ the bible? If viewed that way, it’s comparative literature. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/30 "2010-03-04T04:10:06Z")
Religious and non-religious ranting about teaching the Bible aside, all I know is: 1. I don’t care about Governor. It’s more of a figurehead position in the Texas government than you’d think, despite Rick Perry’s attempts to make it into Governor-Emperor. 2. There’s something sketchy about Bill White that I can’t put my finger on. If my father, an otherwise rational man and a 20+ year civil servant in Houston hates him like the Devil, something’s up. He didn’t hate Lee Brown or Bob Lanier nearly so intensely as White, who was only mayor for his last year or two before he retired. I have to wonder what would anger Dad so. He votes Republican, which wouldn’t let Brown or Lanier off the hook, but he reserves a special place for White, which baffles me somewhat. 1. I’m reallly irritated in general with Texas state politics. I didn’t want to vote for any of Perry, Hutchinson, Shami, White or Medina. They all sucked from what I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/31 "2010-03-04T04:12:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Except these Bible classes do not argue for the truth of any religion or denomination-for instance would it be promoting Greco-Roman paganism to say that there is some Historical truth to the _Iliad_? Oh please. If it is the ONLY book being taught, and it’s right smack dab in the Bible Belt, what do you expect to happen? The Bible is a religious book, plain an simple. It is not a history book, and was not written to be one. Let’s require that the schools teach the Koran,.purely for its historical value. Imagine the shit storm that would start. I wonder why - because it’s not the “right” one. Also, remember, Texas has a lot of young earth, creationist types who have on occasion, been able to get their stuff included in science classes as “alternative something or others” too. Government needs to stay out of religion. I don’t care if they call it science, history, or home economics. They need to leave it alone. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/32 "2010-03-04T14:00:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Oh please. If it is the ONLY book being taught, and it’s right smack dab in the Bible Belt, what do you expect to happen? The Bible is a religious book, plain an simple. It is not a history book, and was not written to be one. Let’s require that the schools teach the Koran,.purely for its historical value. Imagine the shit storm that would start. I wonder why - because it’s not the “right” one. > Also, remember, Texas has a lot of young earth, creationist types who have on occasion, been able to get their stuff included in science classes as “alternative something or others” too. > > Government needs to stay out of religion. I don’t care if they call it science, history, or home economics. They need to leave it alone. The [Texas Freedom Network](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Txbiblecoursesexecsummary) reported on Bible classes in Texas schools, back in 2006. Findings summarized here: > [@](#): > > Most Bible courses taught in Texas public schools fail to meet even minimal standards for teacher qualifications and academic rigor. > > Most Bible courses are taught as religious and devotional classes that promote one faith perspective over all others. > > Most Bible courses advocate an ideological agenda that is hostile to religious freedom, science and public education itself. > > A handful of Texas school districts show that it is possible to teach Bible courses in an objective and nonsectarian manner appropriate to public school classrooms . (And I think Bill White would make a fine governor. Heck, I’d have welcomed Kay Bailey Hutchison instead of Creationist, Secessionist Governor Good Hair–who brought Sarah Palin in to campaign for him. Briefly–for money, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/33 "2010-03-04T23:14:57Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The [Texas Freedom Network](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Txbiblecoursesexecsummary) reported on Bible classes in Texas schools, back in 2006. Findings summarized here: > > . > > (And I think Bill White would make a fine governor. Heck, I’d have welcomed Kay Bailey Hutchison instead of Creationist, Secessionist Governor Good Hair–who brought Sarah Palin in to campaign for him. Briefly–for money, of course.) Thank you for those cites. You saved me the effort of searching for them 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/34 "2010-03-06T03:45:37Z")
Are you sure Governor Perry is a YECer? Because even George W. Bush is a theistic evolutionist. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/35 "2010-03-06T11:50:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Are you sure Governor Perry is a YECer? Because even George W. Bush is a theistic evolutionist. Did I say he was a _Young Earth_ Creationist? I do know that his pal, Don McElroy, is one. From an [NCSE report](http://ncse.com/news/2010/03/mcleroy-booted-texas-005354): > [@](#): > > In the March 2, 2010, primary election, avowed young-earth creationist Don McLeroy narrowly lost his bid to be the Republican candidate for the District 9 seat on the Texas state board of education. As the Dallas Morning News (March 3, 2010) reported, “The fiercely contested race pitted McLeroy, a dentist from College Station and member of the board’s social conservative bloc, against [Thomas] Ratliff, a legislative consultant and son of former Lt. Gov. Bill Ratliff,” who is viewed as likely to side with the moderates on the board. There is no Democratic candidate for the seat, so Ratliff is expected to be elected in November 2010. > > Originally elected to the board in 1998, McLeroy was persistently determined to undermine the treatment of evolution in Texas’s public schools. During the debate over biology textbook adoption in 2003, he was one of the four members of the board who misused the state science standards to oppose adopting the eleven textbooks under consideration. His attacks on science education — including his endorsement of a book that described parents who want their children to learn about evolution as “monsters” — were in part responsible for the state senate’s refusal to confirm him as chair of the board in May 2009, as NCSE previously reported. Oh, the National Center for Science Education must be part of the “Texas evolution-lobby” feared by [the worthies](http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/texas_evolution_lobby_making_p.html)at The Discovery Institute. (Along with the Texas Freedom Network.) > [@](#): > > A Wall Street Journal (WSJ) article from last month, “Education Board in Texas Faces Curbs,” revealed how the Texas evolution-lobby has been seeking to use both censorship and power grabs to promote their agenda. First, they sought to censor from Texas students any instruction on scientific weaknesses in evolution. Having lost that fight before the Texas State Board of Education (TSBOE), they have tried to use other tactics to punish the board for adopting science standards that teach evolution objectively, or to grab power away from the democratically elected board. Go Texas evolution-lobby! Next time, we need to get some Democrats to run for the School Board… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/36 "2010-03-06T18:04:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > … Because even George W. Bush is a theistic evolutionist. So what? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/37 "2010-03-06T19:40:35Z")
Yeah, it’s not like he’s a real Texan. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/38 "2010-03-06T20:28:47Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Yeah, it’s not like he’s a real Texan. Even if he was (and he isn’t), my retort would be “so what”. I lived in Texas for a number of years and some people would be shocked to know 1. not all of them are young earthers, creationists, “rapturerers”, “end of dayers”, creationist evolutionists, “intelligent designers”, or flat earthers 2. not all of them want somone else’s version of the Bible taught in school 3. not all of them want any version taught in school (they believe it is a private matter and a family matter) 4. some of them actively despise G W Bush, each for their own reasons. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/39 "2010-03-07T01:29:22Z")
Oh, yah, I was just pointin out the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151/40 "2010-03-07T03:28:38Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Yeah, it’s not like he’s a real Texan. Or even a real Christian! :eek: [http://amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/subpage233.html](http://amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/subpage233.html) And Dubya isn’t a real American either-Connecticut is about as American as San Francisco or Boston is full of evul libruls and commies and godless atheists! [COLOR=“White”](NOTE: This was SARCASM, thank you)[/COLOR] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-primary-results/531151.md?page=3)