# Texas school tells classes to fight back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414 "2006-10-14T09:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/1 "2006-10-14T09:39:19Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061013/ap\_on\_re\_us/defending\_the\_classroom](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061013/ap_on_re_us/defending_the_classroom) > [@](#): > > BURLESON, Texas - Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got — books, pencils, legs and arms. > > “Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success,” said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools. Great. I’m all for it. There’s a great push in modern western society to take the fight out of men (and women, I suppose). We’re trained to be passive, submissive - to rely on the Real Men, the agents of the government like police, to handle the tough situations. That we should just be meek and quiet and hope that the official Real Men can come in time to save us. Many people will be outraged at the very idea of teaching people to fight back - perhaps even most. After all, we all know the proper response to a dangerous situation is to become a sheep-like as possible and hope for the mercy of the crazy guy trying to cause harm. I’m surprised something like flight 93 even happened, to be honest, the way people typically respond to situations like that. Although I do remember reading a quote from one of the cell phone conversations - one of the men on the flight told his wife “Me and a **few** of the men have decided to take them out” or something along those lines. I could imagine most of the men on that flight meekly protesting even as some real men took the situation into their hands. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a week or two, the district had to retract this policy and offer a public apology for having the gaul to teach people to be proactive in their own safety. But it was a good news story to read, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/2 "2006-10-14T11:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got — books, pencils, legs and arms. I just had a RotJ flashback. Weren’t those Ewoks cute taking out the storm troopers? “Alright children, who wants to be the first to pile onto the strange man holding the assault rifle? Come on now, he can only shoot so many of you before you take him down!” What about banks? Should a lobby full of bank customers rush the guy with an assault rifle? The question is moot because it’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen because nobody wants to get shot. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/3 "2006-10-14T12:49:21Z")
I think several points must be noted. First, Response Options is a company with a product to sell. It is apparently capitalizing on the current scare surrounding the three school shootings that have occurred within the past month. In the process, it is also making the school district feel good that they’re teaching children skills that may never need to be used. In fact, the Response Options website has a [letter](http://www.responseoptions.com/testimonials.htm) from the Burleson ISD as its only testimonial. It describes, in rather glowing terms, the “quality” of the program, and said that students and staff will feel “empowered”. Second, what if (God forbid) a shooting happens next year, or three or ten years from now? Are these kids going to remember their “training”? Are future generations of students going to be “trained”? How can the district continue to justify the time and cost of a program like this, given that the odds of a school shooting happening there are fairly small. Finally, I don’t think the problem is that people are passive. I think the problem is that we’re all so afraid of being the victims of violence that a school district is willing to spend time and money, not to mention the possibility of scaring the shit out of its students, to “train” children and staff for an event that may well never happen. I’d rather that money go to a more realistic plan of providing, say, emergency communications equipment in the classrooms to let the teachers get to some competent help. Robin ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/4 "2006-10-14T13:02:13Z")
And what are the teachers supposed to be doing while their students are throwing juice boxes at the man with the AK-47? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/5 "2006-10-14T13:21:57Z")
I suspect in about the next 20 posts, this will escalate to “what will the toddlers do with their crayons as the guy sets up a tripod mounted water-cooled machine gun to mow them down?” BTW, I certainly don’t advocate knee-jerk responses, of any sort, to specific events like school shooting. I don’t know what the training entails - but unless it’s practical general self defense training, or it’s quick and cheap, then I suppose I would be much more hesistant to advocate it. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/6 "2006-10-14T13:22:38Z")
I’m totally on board with the OP. As we know, almost every school child eventually ends up in some sort of hostage situation by the time they reach high school age, and every hostage situation I’ve ever heard of always ended up with dead children piled up in heaps. I know all you milquetoasts and pantywaists are far too limp-wristed to ever allow your ten-year-olds to pack concealed heat, so the least you can do is let your school boards hire altruistic outfits like Response Options to teach kids how to stab adults in the calves with a pencil . Lord knows such skills are the only things that saved me the three or four times I was held hostage by gun-toting maniacs in grade school. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/7 "2006-10-14T13:25:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I suspect in about the next 20 posts, this will escalate to “what will the toddlers do with their crayons as the guy sets up a tripod mounted water-cooled machine gun to mow them down?” And of course the inflammatory way in which you presented your OP will have had nothing to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/8 "2006-10-14T13:39:26Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] I’m totally on board with the OP. As we know, almost every school child eventually ends up in some sort of hostage situation by the time they reach high school age, and every hostage situation I’ve ever heard of always ended up with dead children piled up in heaps. [/QUOTE] Oh, I’m well aware that it’s a very small chance. “At Burleson — which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students — the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquet.” It sounds like it’s just generally good emergency situation training - that’s probably entirely more useful than most of the stuff kids will learn in a similar time period. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/9 "2006-10-14T14:19:25Z")
I find one implication in the training deeply troubling: the implication that if the students do fight back by throwing books at the gunman, but that the gunman perseveres, and that a hostage situation occurs and that kids are killed **anyway** , that somehow the students have failed, and the ones who survive will have to live with the self-imposed guilt that they tried to fight back, and failed, and people died because they failed. It puts too much of the burden–too much of the responsibility for saving their school from a mad gunman–upon the kids. Sometimes shit just happens, and sometimes Evil just targets your life, and there’s not a whole lot you can do about it, self-defense courses notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/10 "2006-10-14T14:36:12Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] I find one implication in the training deeply troubling: the implication that if the students do fight back by throwing books at the gunman, but that the gunman perseveres, and that a hostage situation occurs and that kids are killed **anyway** , that somehow the students have failed, and the ones who survive will have to live with the self-imposed guilt that they tried to fight back, and failed, and people died because they failed. It puts too much of the burden–too much of the responsibility for saving their school from a mad gunman–upon the kids. Sometimes shit just happens, and sometimes Evil just targets your life, and there’s not a whole lot you can do about it, self-defense courses notwithstanding. [/QUOTE] I totally agree. Also, “feeling empowered” when you really aren’t is just as “namby-pamby” as being passive. And it’s dangerous. Teaching a seven-year-old that he can go toe-to-toe with an armed gunman is going to get that seven-year-old killed. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/11 "2006-10-14T14:36:46Z")
The difference between a classroom shooting and flight 93 (well, one of them) was that by fighting back the passengers on that flight saved the lives of many other people by stopping the hijackers from accomplishing their objective. A school shooter’s objective, on the other hand, is usually just to kill a lot of people. Training kids to attack a shooter just seems to me as though it’ll get them killed sooner, really. I can’t see kids being able to get a gun (or several guns) off of a determined person without there being casualties, and that’s assuming that the kids are actually able to try something and aren’t under their tables pissing themselves anyway. This sounds like a pointless waste of money. The first aid information, on the other hand, does sound pretty useful; i’d be all for that. Just as a reply to the OP, i’m all for people standing up for themselves. Kids standing up for themselves against an armed gunman who is actively trying to kill them? I think the good ol’ option of fleeing is the one that’ll save most life in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/12 "2006-10-14T14:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > “At Burleson — which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students — the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquet.” Well that part does sound eminently sensible. After all, teaching schoolkids to run directly at armed maniacs pretty much guarantees that first aid is going to be required, doesn’t it? _“Remember, kids, getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success. Rush the tornado and hit it with everything you’ve got-- books, pencils, legs and arms. Only sheep leave a building meekly and wait for the fire department-- real men beat the crap out of a blaze with their own hands. Flames feed on oxygen, so a fire’s most vulnerable spots are the throat and solar plexus.”_ Seriously, that’s blackly hilarious. Way to go, Texas; real men don’t worry about feeding derogatory stereotypes. Remember the Alamo! ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/13 "2006-10-14T14:50:56Z")
I teach, and I live in Texas. I’m wondering what’s going to happen when the kids’ parents get wind of what the school’s new policy is, and how they have chosen to implement it. I anticipate some VERY interesting school board meetings in the near future. More so than when that one dip suggested we give all the teachers guns. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/14 "2006-10-14T14:53:58Z")
At times like these, I always turn to the works of American philosopher and labor leader James ‘Jimmy’ Hoffa: _Run from a knife, rush a gun._ ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/15 "2006-10-14T15:15:51Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] I suspect in about the next 20 posts, this will escalate to “what will the toddlers do with their crayons as the guy sets up a tripod mounted water-cooled machine gun to mow them down?” [/QUOTE] You know, a Vickers Gun, Browning M1917, or a Maxim M1910 can’t really be operated by one guy- you need someone to load and feed the belt as well. And except for the M1910, they’re not the most portable of MGs, either. 😉 (No, I haven’t been whooshed- I’m just making a comment in slightly poor taste). Seriously though, teaching 7 year olds to take on armed gunmen is just… dangerous. I’m reminded of that _Seinfeld_ episode where Kramer takes up Karate so he can fight 7 year olds, secure in the knowledge they can’t beat him… ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/16 "2006-10-14T15:49:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do,” said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. Hmm, maybe it’s not nearly as terrible as some are saying. Didn’t **Revenant Threshold** advocate this very action? Still, waste of money IMHO. How much is that school district spending on this? I bet **Master Wang-Ka** could come up with a half-dozen things his school needs more than a British Army Reserve Major giving speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/17 "2006-10-14T16:11:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Still, waste of money IMHO. How much is that school district spending on this? I bet **Master Wang-Ka** could come up with a half-dozen things his school needs more than a British Army Reserve Major giving speeches. [/QUOTE] And for some reason, I keep imagining Sergeant-Major “Shut Up” Williams from [_It Ain’t Half Hot Mum_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Ain%27t_Half_Hot_Mum), in full uniform, parading up and down in front a classroom full of 7 year olds, calling them “'Orrible little men and women” and telling them that “They’re a bunch of poofs” if they don’t try and engage armed intruders in hand-to-hand combat. The likelihood of a particular school being the site of a shooting is ten to the power of Liberia’s national deficit, but of course everyone wants to be safe from THE BOOGEYMAN! _Dramatic Chord_ In other news, Pope evacuates bowels in wooded area, Film at 11… ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/18 "2006-10-14T16:21:33Z")
Many years ago, this side of the pond ,there was a slogan "have a go " the nub of which was if anyone held up the bank ,shop or whatever premises that you and other members of the public happened to be in it was considered good citizenship to attack and/or chase the bad guys .the papers regulary had accounts of quote, "Have a go heroes "unquote , a surprising number still actually alive after the editions had gone to press! A big difference to the current situation though was the very real rarity of gun crime in the u.k. at that time ,even today it is less common here then in the U.S. but depressingly seems to be fast catching up.I think if its a case of a relatively cool headed group of proffessional criminals only interested in getting the money and making their getaway with as few problems as possible , then yes it is the best policy to cooperate,but with terrorists,nutcases and Walter Mittys trying to make a name for themselves its probably more a case of when ,rather then if ,you`re going to die .Human nature being what it is though; many of us caught in that situation would still be experiencing an illogical hope that WE are going to get through it alright even if the others wont!(Always assuming that we`re not paralysed with terror anyway !) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/19 "2006-10-14T16:22:08Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Hmm, maybe it’s not nearly as terrible as some are saying. Didn’t **Revenant Threshold** advocate this very action? [/QUOTE] I don’t think kids need expensive training to know that if a teacher runs in panicing and shouting “Run, kids! There’s a madman with a gun!” that it’s a good idea to, well, run. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414/20 "2006-10-14T16:47:10Z")
just wanted to point out that Burleson is NOT part of Fort Worth, but is a small town a bit south of here. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-school-tells-classes-to-fight-back/376414.md?page=2)