# Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728 "2010-06-18T23:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/181 "2010-06-20T21:44:02Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > OK, so imagine a parent who feels ill, pulls over to a safe spot, and gets out of the car to vomit, leaving the child in the car. They then faint. When they come round, the child has died of hyperthermia. > > Is that parent guilty of a crime? Dio, what say you? The correct answer is this would never happen. This, like babies only wearing diapers and minors who look older than 21, is an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/182 "2010-06-20T21:45:04Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I’m still not convinced. As a parent, you have a responsibility for your child’s safety when you take him or her out of the house. Forgetting that they’re with you is a pretty significant breach of that responsibility. Say you take your kid to the playground, run into some friends and decide to go grab a bite to eat and catch up, leaving the kid at the playground unattended. How is that not negligence? I think the difference between the two scenarios is that it’s normal for parents to associate being at a playground with having their kid with them. That’s why these people didn’t forget their kids at the playground. They did not, however, associate driving to work with having their kids in the car because it was out of the norm. Or they were so distracted by other things to not realize that they hadn’t made the normal stop at the daycare center. I won’t dispute that the child’s safety is the parents’ responsibility. I would just say that it appears that the parents involved did not willfully or negligently shirk that responsibility. As noted, the juries and prosecutors in some of those cases came to the same conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/183 "2010-06-20T21:48:57Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The correct answer is this would never happen. This, like babies only wearing diapers and minors who look older than 21, is an urban legend. Eh? It’s a hypothetical situation, a thought experiment, not an urban legend, and it certainly could happen. I’m not sure what you mean about babies only wearing diapers, but I’ve met plenty of minors who look over 21, and was one of them myself. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/184 "2010-06-20T21:54:00Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I won’t dispute that the child’s safety is the parents’ responsibility. I would just say that it appears that the parents involved did not willfully or negligently shirk that responsibility. As noted, the juries and prosecutors in some of those cases came to the same conclusion. I’d like to add that people tend to judge parents more harshly than they would any other group of people. Juries are made up of ordinary people; they’re not predisposed to go easy on negligent parents and they’re just as likely to think ‘it could NEVER happen to ME.’ But they, with all the facts at their disposal, find these parents not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/185 "2010-06-20T22:00:40Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Eh? It’s a hypothetical situation, a thought experiment, not an urban legend, and it certainly could happen. > > I’m not sure what you mean about babies only wearing diapers, but I’ve met plenty of minors who look over 21, and was one of them myself. No, those are all positions that **Dio** has put forth in the past. Based on that I figured that that’s how he’d respond. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/186 "2010-06-20T22:19:07Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > No, those are all positions that **Dio** has put forth in the past. Based on that I figured that that’s how he’d respond. Oh, I get you now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/187 "2010-06-20T22:21:15Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > No, those are all positions that **Dio** has put forth in the past. No they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/188 "2010-06-20T22:22:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s legally irrelevant in the acse of leaving a baby in the car. No intent is required in order for it to be a crime. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not a legal excuse to say you forgot. It’s not irrelevant when you argue like this: [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I already do that. That’s why it absolutely can’t happen to me. **Parents who do that crap should be jailed for life. They are murderers.** I am better they are. I will not be told that I would ever do the same thing. There’s no way in hell. [/QUOTE] > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So you’re now saying it should be legal? **Anyone who wants to kill their baby** need only leave it to die in their car and receive a get-out-of-jail-free card? Bolding mine. You are arguing about intent here, no? In order to convict someone of murder, which is the \*only \*thing that merits life imprisonment under current statutes, you DO have to establish intent (mens rea). I have already linked the statutes that apply. [Here it is again.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Basic_elements) And in case you decide yet again to not click: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Basic elements In common law jurisdictions, murder has two elements or parts: 1. the specific act (actus reus) of killing a person 2. the state of mind (mens rea) of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton. While murder is often expressed as the unlawful killing of another human being with “malice aforethought”, this element of malice may not be required in every jurisdiction (for example, see the French definition of murder below). ``` * The element of malice aforethought can be satisfied by an intentional killing, which is considered express malice. * Malice can also be implied: deaths that occur by any recklessness or during certain serious crimes are considered to be implied malice murders. ``` [/QUOTE] As to criminal negligence for lesser charges of manslaughter (reckless homicide) or criminally negligent homicide, the relevant links have already been provided (thanks **Bearflag70** as well. Here [you](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence) [go](http://www.californiacriminaldefenseblog.com/criminal_negligence/) [again](http://www.shouselaw.com/criminal-negligence.html). In case you decide not to click through: [QUOTE=Shouse Law Group] The defendant must have knowledge of the danger Actual or constructive knowledge means that either 1. the defendant actually knew that he/she was involved in behavior that was likely to result in death or serious bodily injury to another person, or 2. a reasonable person in a similar situation would have appreciated the risk. When this is the case, that knowledge is imputed to the defendant and is called “constructive” knowledge. If the defendant doesn’t have this knowledge…either actual or constructive…he/she cannot be held criminally negligent.11 [/QUOTE] You \*could \*argue constructive knowledge in these cases, but only insofar as refuting that the parent was ignorant of the danger of leaving the child in the car unattended. But you’d also have to argue that the parent displayed some awareness that they were leaving said child in the car. However, without the mens rea element, that still does not equate with murder. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/189 "2010-06-20T22:41:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No they aren’t. Seriously? You don’t remember the baby diaper thread or the statutory rape thread? > [@Get your baby's dirty ass off the restaurant table!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-babys-dirty-ass-off-the-restaurant-table/540435/33): > > And yes, there ARE people out there who take their kids out wearing nothing but their diapers – trust me, I’VE seen them. > [@Get your baby's dirty ass off the restaurant table!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-babys-dirty-ass-off-the-restaurant-table/540435/37): > > No there aren’t. Not in restaurants. Not anywhere really. Or > [@](#): > > And no 15 year old looks like a 21 year old. It’s just prevaricating, disingenuous, ass-covering bullshit to say that if you see a girl in a bar you can presume she’s over the age of consent. Nobody actually thinks that underaged girls can’t get into bars. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/190 "2010-06-20T22:44:28Z")
Gotcha ya!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/191 "2010-06-20T22:50:24Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I’m still not convinced. As a parent, you have a responsibility for your child’s safety when you take him or her out of the house. Forgetting that they’re with you is a pretty significant breach of that responsibility. Say you take your kid to the playground, run into some friends and decide to go grab a bite to eat and catch up, leaving the kid at the playground unattended. How is that not negligence? > > Or, to put it another way, imagine you hired someone to babysit your kids who forgot to watch them and they ended up dying. Do you really think you’re not going to press charges for criminal negligence? Have you read the link to the WaPo article about the science that may be behind the “child-left-in-a-car” syndrome? It was posted as a link in this thread, but I’m not sure many people read it. I didn’t. But, in the Pit thread by Billfish, an excerpt was posted and opened my eyes. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27) Giving examples involving a playground with your kid don’t apply. The babysitter analogy doesn’t work. It’s all about something as connected as driving a car with the baby in the back seat and part of your brain is driving the car and part is thinking about your schedule and …you get the idea. Read it if you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/192 "2010-06-20T22:59:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What post has proven me wrong? Show me a statute that says intent is necessary. Okay. One more try. How do you explain the prosecutors who have not pursued a case, or the juries who have acquitted, in instances where the parent has confessed and never contested that he or she left the kid in the car and that act led to the kid’s death? Are they all just ignoring the law you assert exists that demands in such a case that the defendant be found guilty? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/193 "2010-06-20T23:10:12Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Have you read the link to the WaPo article about the science that may be behind the “child-left-in-a-car” syndrome? It was posted as a link in this thread, but I’m not sure many people read it. I didn’t. But, in the Pit thread by Billfish, an excerpt was posted and opened my eyes. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27) > > Giving examples involving a playground with your kid don’t apply. The babysitter analogy doesn’t work. > > It’s all about something as connected as driving a car with the baby in the back seat and part of your brain is driving the car and part is thinking about your schedule and …you get the idea. > > Read it if you haven’t. Yep. It really is a topic where you need to read more about the psychology and about people’s experiences rather than going on your personal experience. You need to get some perspective - realise that every parent has moments of inattention. We can all think of them. Only then do you realise that your momentary lapse in judgment, which every single parent has, is the same as the parents in these cars - only theirs lead to the child’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/194 "2010-06-20T23:33:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Leaving a baby in a car is automatically criminally negligent by statute. So you yourself are guilty of criminal neglect, then: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I will say that I’ve had lapses for a few seconds when getting out of the car and starting to walk away You left your baby in the car. Therefore you are guilty of a crime under your black and white world view. I still want to know how you left your kid in the car at all if you check the car seat every time. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/195 "2010-06-20T23:52:55Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > What? I’m not going to judge at all, but I’m 100% confident I will never do that. I’d be just as likely to forget to pull the ripcord while skydiving - not going to happen. I was on the DZ during a very busy day when a friend of mine who was an instructor & jumpmaster took a plane full of students up. The plane landed without dropping anyone, the instructor got out, ran inside and came back buckling his rig on. Got back in the plane and everything went normally from there. He was very shaken up by that. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/196 "2010-06-21T00:08:44Z")
Negligently - the actor is unaware of the attendant circumstances and the consequences of his conduct, but a “reasonable person” would have been aware We could posit that the parent would be fully aware that the day in question is hot… and that leaving the child in the car would cause harm to the child. Of course the parent had no intent… but I concur with DIO intent isn’t always necessary for negligence. Hence Marilyn Engholm… and Kevin Daley and Marlene Heath. When the situation occurs its largely up to the prosecutor to decide whether to go forward with criminal proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/197 "2010-06-21T00:46:51Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Have you read the link to the WaPo article about the science that may be behind the “child-left-in-a-car” syndrome? It was posted as a link in this thread, but I’m not sure many people read it. I didn’t. But, in the Pit thread by Billfish, an excerpt was posted and opened my eyes. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12599044&postcount=27) I hadn’t caught that the first time through – brutally painful to read, but illuminating. It has definitely changed my understanding of how this type of thing could happen to almost anyone. The “thinking you’ve dropped the child off and going about your day” mistake seems to be by far the most common listed in the article, and is scarily relatable – which of us hasn’t had a :smack: moment when we realized we forgot to do something in the course of an everyday routine? So, given this, I would definitely withhold judgment on any given case until I knew the facts. This is not to say I’d assume it wasn’t possible for a parent to be negligent in this type of situation – when a child dies in an adult’s care, negligence has got to be considered a possibility. But I see now a far wider range of mitigating circumstances than I had previously appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/198 "2010-06-21T01:22:35Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > Negligently - the actor is unaware of the attendant circumstances and the consequences of his conduct, but a “reasonable person” would have been aware > > We could posit that the parent would be fully aware that the day in question is hot.. and that leaving the child in the car would cause harm to the child. Of course the parent had no intent.. but I concur with DIO intent isn’t always necessary for negligence. Hence Marilyn Engholm.. and Kevin Daley and Marlene Heath. When the situation occurs its largely up to the prosecutor to decide whether to go forward with criminal proceedings. Criminal negligence requires that the defendant willfully placed the child in a circumstance that a reasonable person would have known was dangerous, even if there was no intent for harm to occur. “Willfully” is the operative word. A parent who leaves a kid in the car “just for a minute” while he goes shopping may well be criminally negligent. A parent who is unaware that the child is in danger, no. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/199 "2010-06-21T02:05:55Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > If it was really so common for people to operate on autopilot _to the point that they can forget a baby in the car_, we’d have a lot more dead babies. What I would posit is that it is actually extraordinarily common for people to operate on autopilot to the point that they can forget things in a car, it’s just mercifully uncommon for what’s forgotten to be a baby. It’s more often a purse or briefcase, or lunch, or something you don’t normally have, like the package someone gave you midday that you weren’t expecting, that you leave in the car when you get home, or the library book that you mean to drop in the return box on the way into work, but don’t, because you get into your routine. And it’s the matter of going onto autopilot with our routines that makes any non-automatic solution to the left-behind-baby matter completely useless. There has to be something that is triggered solely by the fact of the baby being in the carseat when the parent is out of the car. My idea would be that on all new cars, there would be a tie-in between the latch for the carseat and the door locks. If the carseat is still latched, the doors would not lock and the keyfob would make a warning sound. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/200 "2010-06-21T02:06:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Criminal negligence requires that the defendant willfully placed the child in a circumstance that a reasonable person would have known was dangerous, even if there was no intent for harm to occur. “Willfully” is the operative word. A parent who leaves a kid in the car “just for a minute” while he goes shopping may well be criminally negligent. A parent who is unaware that the child is in danger, no. Any parent who leaves the kid in the car knows the kid is in danger. It is not a legal excuse to say you “forgot.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728.md?page=11)